How should net metering affect your electric bill? • Hacker News Board

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#251

Post by danans » Thu, Feb 03, 2022, 11:26 PM UTC

oogali wrote: post #136

Dave_Rosenthal wrote: post #99

I just moved into a new construction house in Colorado with a substantial (23kW) solar installation. It’s been interesting to see how much, in the words of the author, ‘feeding bread to pigs’ I have ended up doing. The solar installation (which is probably larger than optimal) is dictated by the policy for the house to be “net zero”, which in turn is dictated by a policy based on the size of the house. (In practice,…

> I don’t know what the solution is, but the problems are pretty easy to see. In theory, if you were dealing with one entity, it could be pretty easy. But you are actually dealing with multiple entities: - your utility’s transmission subsidiary - your utility’s generation subsidiary - your applicable regulatory entities - your regional grid operator/planning organization > Well, this is not in the interest of the uti…

> This typically manifests itself to retail customers the form of free Nest thermostats, time of use programs, and subsidized appliance efficiency upgrades (or rebates).

> If they could redirect this money to small generators like yourself and have the same impact, they would drop their demand management programs in a heartbeat

The catch is that the power from small solar generators isn't as valuable as demand management loads, because solar generators aren't controllable - the grid has to just absorb the power they put out regardless of whether it needs it.

Now, if every solar installation had its own battery system that could provide power back to the grid on demand, that would be an equivalent service. And in fact in many places (Vermont [1], parts of California[2]) there are programs starting or in development to do exactly that: buy energy back from residential batteries.

1. https://greenmountainpower.com/rebates-programs/home-energy-...

2. https://ebce.org/resilient-home/

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#252

Post by jupp0r » Thu, Feb 03, 2022, 11:32 PM UTC

The solution to the problem is real time pricing based on the grid's requirements at any moment in time. The current model also disincentives battery installations.

If prices were adapted to grid requirements, we'd have negative energy prices during peak solar production hours so customers should be encouraged to charge their own batteries using their solar or even get paid for charging their batteries via the grid. During hours of high demand but little production, batteries should send energy to the grid.

Of course all of this requires infrastructure as well, which needs to be paid for somehow.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#253

Post by KptMarchewa » Thu, Feb 03, 2022, 11:32 PM UTC

Rebelgecko wrote: post #236

andi999 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which should not happen, I mean do you not insulate the pipes?

Won't insulating the pipes reduce the heating effectiveness?

No. It would reduce transport losses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulated_pipe

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#254

Post by danans » Thu, Feb 03, 2022, 11:39 PM UTC

Ekaros wrote: post #225

conk wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For each kwh you feed to the grid you get a credit for the value of that kWh during that time. Say off-peak is $.20 and peak is $.40 (this is an exaggeration but makes the math easy). You would need to feed 2 kWh to the grid during off peak to cover 1 kWh drawn from the grid during peak usage. On top of this there are non-by passable charges for every kWh drawn from the grid regardless of any credits on your account.

I see no reason why not do this in proper spot market way. Calculate it every 5 minutes, what you supply you get accounted for and what you use or that is withdraw you get accounted. At certain intervals these are matched and you pay the difference.

> I see no reason why not do this in proper spot market way.

The wholesale/spot electricity market is a scary place, as some people in Texas discovered last year [1]

Time of use pricing tranches are designed to insulate consumers from that sort of variability, while also incentivizing consumers to minimize consumption during peak demand times.

Time-of-use electricity pricing has been happening in California for a long time, but only now is it becoming mandatory (there are still many households out there on legacy flat-rate plans, although they are being moved).

Many parts of the country are just now introducing time-of-use pricing. As both the grid and loads become smarter and more resilient, we'll see consumer electricity rates reflect the underlying wholesale price variability even more, but probably never completely.

1. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/20/us/texas-storm-electric-b...

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#255

Post by SilasX » Thu, Feb 03, 2022, 11:42 PM UTC

oogali wrote: post #247

SilasX wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't get how any of that translates to a defense of the utilities' overall behavior. (Though I appreciate the context -- thanks!) Why can't they like, suggest to the relevant authorities, that it be refactored along more logical lines, where solar power generators have the appropriate checks for safety (before feeding into the grid), and are paid a significant fraction of the value their po…

> Maybe it's just me, but I don't get how any of that translates to a defense of the utilities' overall behavior. It's not a defense of utilities, it's more about shining a light on regulatory actions. I referenced the regulatory parts several times because that's the largest factor of what they can and cannot do. For example, in most states, an electric utility must first seek regulatory approval to raise prices eve…

> The resulting Kafka-esque bits were what regional grid operators and regulators jointly required _a long time ago_ as part of the transition to a "deregulated" electricity market (e.g. this was not enacted in response to solar).

That’s not the part I was referring to as Kafkaesque. I meant the part where the OP had to go though an obscured workflow and wait over months to receive slow replies just to get the process moving to be paid for their solar contribution.

If it was a long time because that was an inherent difficulty of complying with necessary safety regulations, I would not call it Kafkaesque. But here, it’s where there are obvious attempts to scare off all but the most diligent, just to get the super-watered-down version of being paid.

Ditto for stuff like “you can only trade energy within the same time bands because we have no concept of a conversion factor between different time bands”.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#256

Post by ska » Thu, Feb 03, 2022, 11:47 PM UTC

Bilal_io wrote: post #219

nomel wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You realize most people love in apartments right? Most apartments don't have fireplaces. No, I mean the little burners you put on top of portable propane tanks, that are usually used for BBQ's or while camping. Searching "campground propane burner" in Amazon shows several hundred results of what I'm talking about. They don't require a campground to operate. > Or fix the damn infrastructure. You and your fear exists…

Thank you for the advise. I will invest in one of those burners.

They are great to have around in this situation. Just be careful with ventilation always and don't leave untended. Not suitable as a heater.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#257

Post by autoexec » Thu, Feb 03, 2022, 11:50 PM UTC

nomel wrote: post #212

Bilal_io wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"fear" is necessary because I was stuck at an apartment for 3 days and nowhere to go with no heat and no water when the weather outside was -17 degrees.

As my comment suggested, you could change that fear to inconvenience with minimal preparation: put some water jugs, canned/packaged food, and blankets+cheap snow outfit in your closet, and throw in a little campground propane burner for a nice warm meal. -17 outdoors is a warm ski day indoors. If you've known anyone that lives in a cold part of the country, having some preparation is an extremely common practice.

Good advice for folks stuck in a place where corruption makes basic utility service unreliable, but doing a bunch of extra work to make getting through those times when you are without power a little less painful is no replacement for solving the problem. If I were in that situation I'd just move. There are plenty of states in the US that do not regularly have problems providing power, heat, and water to the folks who pay for them.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#258

Post by ska » Thu, Feb 03, 2022, 11:51 PM UTC

Ekaros wrote: post #225

conk wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For each kwh you feed to the grid you get a credit for the value of that kWh during that time. Say off-peak is $.20 and peak is $.40 (this is an exaggeration but makes the math easy). You would need to feed 2 kWh to the grid during off peak to cover 1 kWh drawn from the grid during peak usage. On top of this there are non-by passable charges for every kWh drawn from the grid regardless of any credits on your account.

I see no reason why not do this in proper spot market way. Calculate it every 5 minutes, what you supply you get accounted for and what you use or that is withdraw you get accounted. At certain intervals these are matched and you pay the difference.

> I see no reason why not do this in proper spot market way

volatility could easily drive you crazy here.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#259

Post by oogali » Fri, Feb 04, 2022, 12:00 AM UTC

SilasX wrote: post #255

oogali wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe it's just me, but I don't get how any of that translates to a defense of the utilities' overall behavior. It's not a defense of utilities, it's more about shining a light on regulatory actions. I referenced the regulatory parts several times because that's the largest factor of what they can and cannot do. For example, in most states, an electric utility must first seek regulatory approval to raise prices eve…

> The resulting Kafka-esque bits were what regional grid operators and regulators jointly required _a long time ago_ as part of the transition to a "deregulated" electricity market (e.g. this was not enacted in response to solar). That’s not the part I was referring to as Kafkaesque. I meant the part where the OP had to go though an obscured workflow and wait over months to receive slow replies just to get the proces…

> I meant the part where the OP had to go though an obscured workflow and wait over months to receive slow replies just to get the process moving to be paid for their solar contribution.

This is the same workflow that commercial entities go through but employ an army of lawyers as expensive lubrication to keep the process moving.

> If it was a long time because that was an inherent difficulty of complying with necessary safety regulations...

Forgive me if I'm wrong here, but I think you're classifying regulations as primarily for safety reasons. The important part here is regulations determine not only safety, but who can participate, what are the required qualifications[1], who gets paid, and what they get paid[2].

> But here, it’s where there are obvious attempts to scare off all but the most diligent...

Yes, the regulations are fully meant to scare off anyone who isn't diligent (or the word they would prefer is "compliant").

> ...just to get the super-watered-down version of being paid.

This might be a bit of hyperbole, but it's probably because the end goal is to eliminate net metering[3].

The telecom industry went through the exact same thing in the late '90s, early '00s. Its version of net metering is called "reciprocal compensation" (based on call flows). Regulators and incumbent lawyers worked in tandem to chip away at this until the rates were so low it didn't matter.

> Ditto for stuff like “you can only trade energy within the same time bands because we have no concept of a conversion factor between different time bands”.

Hoo boy, look at page 4 and 5 of that TX PUC document[3] where the regulators make a decision to disallow the utilities from using meters that would allow for net metering due to time bands.

1: https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/UT/htm/UT.37.htm

2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_pricing

3: https://www.puc.texas.gov/agency/rulesnlaws/subrules/electri...

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#260

Post by dismalpedigree » Fri, Feb 04, 2022, 12:09 AM UTC

Fine. I get the need for the need to cover my offload, downtime and night time when grid tied. What really grinds my gears is that many states REQUIRE you to be grid tied and pay those fees. I would like to go it on my own. Not a legal option.