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Did I just lose half a million dollars?

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Re: Did I just lose half a million dollars?

#831

Post by SilasX »

CRConrad wrote: post #830
SilasX wrote: post #829

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, there is a difference in that respect. But I was replying to the parent’t point that, because the banking system is run by humans, obviously they will fix anything for you that a human can identify as a bad result. (Like sending the money to the wrong place or to a scammer.) It’s kind of missing the point to focus on the narrow issue of “can you accidentally destroy money in the conventional banking system?”

> It’s kind of missing the point to focus on the narrow issue of “can you accidentally destroy money in the conventional banking system?” No it isn't. That's a huge difference. On the contrary, focusing on “Shit happens in the conventional banking system too!”, that's missing the point, IMO.

It’s not really a difference because you can destroy money in the conventional banking system eg by burning paper money. And it’s extremely important if the defense you’re giving I’d wrong, which it is, if that defense is “humans can come in and correct obviously unreasonable things”.

In both conventional banking and crypto, yes, there are situations of “sorry, you’re fucked, but like, you’re just supposed to know not to do that” (where “that” is send wires you’re not 100% sure of or guard your physical cash carefully).

No offense, but you really seem to be drawing the abstraction boundaries poorly here.

Re: Did I just lose half a million dollars?

#832

Post by CRConrad »

rosndo wrote: post #14
wruza wrote: post #9

Is this a motivation issue with crypto? Here is what I mean. Centralized systems work like a web of tunnels - you can’t send “nowhere” or make a huge mistake, but if your part of a tunnel gets shut for some reason, you’re locked. Decentralized ones are like an endless empty void with point-like islands of ownership in it. You can send anywhere, but make one mistake and it’s over. Now pepper this with our usual issues…

>Centralized systems work like a web of tunnels - you can’t send “nowhere” or make a huge mistake You can totally make a 1 digit typo while making a bank transfer that results in all the money being lost. Perhaps you’ll recover it after years of litigation, but that’s really not guaranteed. https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/dec/07/i-lost-my-1930... E: downvoted by upset bankers? :)

> You can totally make a 1 digit typo while making a bank transfer that results in all the money being lost.

Difference being that it isn't "lost" -- not in the sense of vanished from the face of the Earth, gone, ceased to exist. It's only lost to the sender, but it still exists; someone still has it. Sure, the wrong person or entity, but still: It's not gone from existence. Only CryptoCrap does that.

Re: Did I just lose half a million dollars?

#833

Post by CRConrad »

SilasX wrote: post #831
CRConrad wrote: post #830

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s kind of missing the point to focus on the narrow issue of “can you accidentally destroy money in the conventional banking system?” No it isn't. That's a huge difference. On the contrary, focusing on “Shit happens in the conventional banking system too!”, that's missing the point, IMO.

It’s not really a difference because you can destroy money in the conventional banking system eg by burning paper money. And it’s extremely important if the defense you’re giving I’d wrong, which it is, if that defense is “humans can come in and correct obviously unreasonable things”. In both conventional banking and crypto, yes, there are situations of “sorry, you’re fucked, but like, you’re just supposed to know no…

> you can destroy money in the conventional banking system eg by burning paper money.

But that's an accident or intentional vandalism by a user of the system; it isn't built into the system itself.

> In both conventional banking and crypto, yes, there are situations of “sorry, you’re fucked, but like, you’re just supposed to know not to do that” (where “that” is send wires you’re not 100% sure of or guard your physical cash carefully).

In conventional banking the “sorry, you’re fucked” situations don't destroy the money banking is all about handling.

> you really seem to be drawing the abstraction boundaries poorly here.

My "abstraction boundary" (if I understand the term correctly?) is: A system that can have parts that do this -- destroy the very thing it's supposed to handle, "money" -- is a crap system. "Yeah, but you can burn cash!" (vandalism) or "Mistype an account number and the money is lost (to you)!" (not destructive) are not system critiques but whataboutism.

Currency-changing ATMs (do such things exist? If not, why not?) or vending machines like for petrol don't have built-in banknote shredders.

[Edit: Left off half a sentence, screwed up emphases.]

Re: Did I just lose half a million dollars?

#834

Post by ddingus »

FDSGSG wrote: post #828
ddingus wrote: post #805

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it just won't. You read it here first.

This really doesn't line up with the reality of how most people are congregating around user friendly wallet software and steering away from the more advanced options. You only one need one wallet software to be the official WETH-approved client, sucks for anyone else risking their money with unsupported software.

I am quite happy to be proven wrong.

We shall see. And for me, safely and at a distance.

Frankly, the small cost of robustness in contracts should have been factored in from the beginning. It just does not need to be so damn lean and rickety.

The incentives are wrong here.

My prediction is the current state of affairs all gets ripped up and replaced after a time. And until that happens, we are likely to see activity largely limited to people who have a healthy appetite for risk.

Perhaps it all is as it should be too. Had the reverse been done, emphasis on slightly more expensive contracts that are robust and able to deny the costly errors, I would imagine others clamoring for people to adopt the rock bottom lean stacks...

What it won't all be is dull, will it?

Re: Did I just lose half a million dollars?

#836

Post by FDSGSG »

ddingus wrote: post #834
FDSGSG wrote: post #828

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This really doesn't line up with the reality of how most people are congregating around user friendly wallet software and steering away from the more advanced options. You only one need one wallet software to be the official WETH-approved client, sucks for anyone else risking their money with unsupported software.

I am quite happy to be proven wrong. We shall see. And for me, safely and at a distance. Frankly, the small cost of robustness in contracts should have been factored in from the beginning. It just does not need to be so damn lean and rickety. The incentives are wrong here. My prediction is the current state of affairs all gets ripped up and replaced after a time. And until that happens, we are likely to see activity…

There's a ton of money in providing good wallet software. Many people are making a killing by offering good UX, as offering good wallet software puts them in a prime position to offer profit-generating value added services like currency swaps.

>Frankly, the small cost of robustness in contracts should have been factored in from the beginning. It just does not need to be so damn lean and rickety.

It really doesn't seem necessary, more complicated contracts require custom frontends to interact with anyway.

Re: Did I just lose half a million dollars?

#837

Post by mtnGoat »

awhitby wrote: post #508
mtnGoat wrote: post #437

Newer contracts, if built well, have rescue mechanisms built in.

It's notable that after hundreds of years of experience in writing contracts, real world legal systems still rely on courts to interpret them in a reasonable and equitable manner because we cannot possibly anticipate every edge case and build in every rescue mechanism. Smart contracts really shouldn't be called contracts - it's a misleading analogy.

Smart is laughable, they are just functions that live on someone else’s computer. ;)
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