OP hints at this - but the problem seems to be net metering lumps capacity payments in with the cost of power. Some markets run a separate capacity market that rewards power generators explicitly for their capacity - independently of whether they actually generate any electricity. (California's market (CAISO) doesn't do this) A long time ago I was involved in setting capacity market prices if y'all have follow up que…
How should net metering affect your electric bill?
131–140 of 332 posts
Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?
#132Earlier quoted context omitted.
> the sanctimonious environmentalists will fight it because it minimizes the need for heroic personal sacrifice with respect to preserving the environment Any evidence for this? IMO "Sanctimonious environmentalists" only care that consumption reduces. Whether that's voluntary or due to being priced out by carbon taxes is irrelevant. If anything doing it voluntarily, before it was ever needed to make your household bu…
It's pretty much a tautology--I'm defining "sanctimonious environmentalist" as one who makes showy personal sacrifices for esteem. If emissions decrease because manufacturing processes become more efficient, then their sacrifices were for naught and the lifestyle they've been pushing on others becomes irrelevant (or decreases in relevance).
And I'm arguing the opposite. In the short-term at least, costs will rise and people will be forced to cut back.
Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?
#133Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is exactly right. Now that PG&E has built a sizable solar installation base, the NEM3.0 move is to make sure they can capture more profit. Their plan for passing NEM3.0 seems to be to cry and moan about how they're being taken advantage of by individuals who paid $30k to install solar panels on their homes.
People need to be off the grid completely and when that happens what will these power companies do? If we ever get the affordable battery system that are always just around the corner that will allow this to happen. I look forward to the day. Our electric company has been raising rates and the system is not fair. It is tiered so the more you use the more you pay in hopes to reduce usage. Fair enough. But in my house…
I thought that when I was 16. Now that I'm 58, there is no way in hell I am in favor of every household having energy storage systems sufficient to see them through every night and season of high energy use. I'm all for some level of distributed power generation, and some level of distributed energy storage, but "people need to be off the grid completely" is, IMO, a step too far.
Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?
#134Earlier quoted context omitted.
>To completely disincentivize any actual conservation If you are running off of 100% solar that isn't a net negative impact to the environment to use more power in nearly every case.
There are two environmental costs to this setup. The first is that if he weren't frivolously moving electrons through his heater, there would be more to feed to the grid for other people. So there is an opportunity cost of reducing CO2-generating energy production elsewhere. The second is that he installed a much bigger array than optimal, due to regulatory requirements, and that too has up-front environmental conseq…
Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?
#135Earlier quoted context omitted.
>To completely disincentivize any actual conservation If you are running off of 100% solar that isn't a net negative impact to the environment to use more power in nearly every case.
Don't forget the embodied energy of the overbuilt solar system!
Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?
#136I just moved into a new construction house in Colorado with a substantial (23kW) solar installation. It’s been interesting to see how much, in the words of the author, ‘feeding bread to pigs’ I have ended up doing. The solar installation (which is probably larger than optimal) is dictated by the policy for the house to be “net zero”, which in turn is dictated by a policy based on the size of the house. (In practice,…
In theory, if you were dealing with one entity, it could be pretty easy.
But you are actually dealing with multiple entities:
- your utility’s transmission subsidiary
- your utility’s generation subsidiary
- your applicable regulatory entities
- your regional grid operator/planning organization
> Well, this is not in the interest of the utility at all (they lose money), but they still by policy get to ‘approve it’. This required a many-month (and many phone call) process of reviews, approvals, etc. which concluded in the utility activating (installing a meter for) the installation.
Your utility would much rather just say no and be done with it.
They similarly have no financial interests in operating a Kafka-esque bureaucracy that requires them to staff entire departments that are a net drain on their revenue.
But they are obligated by the state regulator to have a uniform framework and process for electricity generators (which you are now) to interconnect with their transmission network (you to their lines).
This pulls you into the category of safety, reliability, and financial requirements which are typically only applied to commercial generators.
The primary things the utility (both transmission and generation) wants to avoid is backfeeding and islanding — the former is dangerous to linemen, the latter is dangerous to your neighbors’ equipment.
> However, the payout is hilariously low (like $0.01/kWh) so of course everyone chooses the bank.
The payout for generation is negotiated by three entities: the regional grid operator which is committing to purchasing capacity, the utility’s transmission operator which charges to interconnect and deliver your power, and the state regulator who has the FINAL say on rates.
Additionally, your utility along with every other utility in America is engaged in demand management programs.
The TL;DR version is utilities pay tens to hundreds of millions of dollars to vendors over the span of a multi-year contract to REDUCE electric demand.
This typically manifests itself to retail customers the form of free Nest thermostats, time of use programs, and subsidized appliance efficiency upgrades (or rebates).
If they could redirect this money to small generators like yourself and have the same impact, they would drop their demand management programs in a heartbeat (and the regulatory obligations that come with it).
I wrote this on my phone, so I can’t easily list references, but I did use a number of searchable terms that will lead you in the right direction.
Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?
#137In Sweden there are 2 separate charges, one for infrastructure and one for consumption. The infrastructure bill scales with how big your breakers/fuses (English) are while consumption scales with how many KWh you've used. You often have a different infra provider and power provider. For someone living in a condo/apt the infra cost is usually higher than consumption while in houses where heating often is powered by so…
I believe in all of Texas (North Texas here), your costs are broken down by energy costs and delivery costs, the latter of which is paid to your TDU to maintain the infrastructure. For our plan the delivery charge is roughly 45% of the kWh price.
Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?
#138Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The reason is that by having distributed solar and storage, you can massively reduce other fixed cost parts of the grid as they age out. The article also completely ignores the concept that distributed generation can actually reduce infrastructure needs. If you're generating the power at the "last mile" and sending it to your neighbor, that power doesn't travel through a substation, it doesn't travel through long t…
> If you're generating the power at the "last mile" and sending it to your neighbor, that power doesn't travel through a substation, it doesn't travel through long transmission lines that need to be maintained, it's just generated (roughly) where it needs to be, saving you a lot of infrastructure. So it certainly seems "fair" to offset that infrastructure cost at least somewhat - you are providing value to the utilit…
And actual usage of that capital often has peak usage much more extreme than a typical 90/10 rule, meaning that the vast majority of that fixed cost is mostly unused.
The key to decreasing that peak is the distributed storage that's paired with distributed solar. It allows massive amounts of cost savings, despite needing to beef up the distribution side of the grid for this to work.
Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?
#139In Sweden there are 2 separate charges, one for infrastructure and one for consumption. The infrastructure bill scales with how big your breakers/fuses (English) are while consumption scales with how many KWh you've used. You often have a different infra provider and power provider. For someone living in a condo/apt the infra cost is usually higher than consumption while in houses where heating often is powered by so…
Had to look up `district heating` ... that's a not a common thing in the US.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_heating
I thought they had abandoned the idea of using heat from a nuclear power plant for district heating in Russia, but apparently that is actually done [1, 2] extensively.
Having a pipe into your house directly (well, not directly, indirectly, but still) from the nuclear power plant next door... not sure how I'd feel about that.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VVER#Tertiary_cooling_circuit_...
[2] https://www.powermag.com/district-heating-supply-from-nuclea...
Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?
#140I'm shocked by how easily electricity prices are easy to find yet no one knows what theirs is! Example: https://utility.report