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How should net metering affect your electric bill?

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Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#91
post #73

One thing that's missing from this is that with current California net metering, for new solar customers, you can't dump a kWh on the grid at noon and then swap it for one at 7pm at the top of the duck curve. New plans are all time-of-use rated, meaning that you can only swap kWh within the same time of use band. At least, that's how it's been explained to me, I have not yet been able to find any explicit rules on PG…

For each kwh you feed to the grid you get a credit for the value of that kWh during that time. Say off-peak is $.20 and peak is $.40 (this is an exaggeration but makes the math easy). You would need to feed 2 kWh to the grid during off peak to cover 1 kWh drawn from the grid during peak usage. On top of this there are non-by passable charges for every kWh drawn from the grid regardless of any credits on your account.

Those numbers are actually really close to reality for some of the electrical vehicle rates, which go down as low as $0.21 for off peak, around $0.40 for part-peak, and $0.53 for full peak. Other TOU rate plans only go as low as $0.31 during some seasons, and peak in the mid 40 cent range.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean - if you aren't using any power - the base charge is usually less than $10/m. This doesn't seem like an absurd amount of money to have power when your system inevitably goes down for a time. Additionally - if you want to sell your house - you're going to lose a fortune taking it off the grid. It wouldn't qualify for most financing. It's not worth saving $10/m for almost any rational/economic person.

California had proposed a rule (NEM 3.0) that would add a grid access charge for solar, which is reasonable. However, the cost for the average solar install would be $50+/month.

FWIW, there's already a $10/mo minimum monthly charge, and a $0.02-$0.03/kWh non-bypassable charge for all energy consumed from the grid in NEM 2.0. So even a net-zero solar customer always pays $10-15/mo or so.

The only reason why some solar customers pay zero is that they _significantly_ overproduce (export more than they use) and overproduction is compensated at the wholesale rate (typically $0.03-$0.04/kWh for PG&E), not the retail rate ($0.11-$0.45/kWh for PG&E).

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#93
post #3

Good piece...putting on my econ hat here, it would definitely be more accurate to say that prices are signals that reflect the all-in cost of moving products and their dependencies through a supply chain and to the consumer. These signals can be disrupted by many factors, including competition or lack thereof, regulation or tax policy, etc, that often can make things inefficient. But in the examples the author uses,…

From an information theory standpoint, prices are a very simple summarization of overall costs that throws a lot of information away.

This is useful to do because supply chains are complicated and understanding them would impose a burden on consumers. But it also means we remain ignorant of how goods and services get to us and what the system constraints are.

Also they aren't just about cost, but also about expected demand, and competition to capture that demand. This makes the information about costs a muddy approximation at best.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#94

In Sweden there are 2 separate charges, one for infrastructure and one for consumption. The infrastructure bill scales with how big your breakers/fuses (English) are while consumption scales with how many KWh you've used. You often have a different infra provider and power provider. For someone living in a condo/apt the infra cost is usually higher than consumption while in houses where heating often is powered by so…

Yes, this model is common in other utilities in the US (both by water and gas bills are structured this way), with a large meter fee and a consumption charge in line with the resource cost. Electricity could certainly be charged this way (and should), but it would be a huge change in how electricity is billed here, and the PUC would rather just make changes to just the net-metering system rather than open the can of…

That's how it is for electricity in Texas. You pay a delivery charge, and then usage charge, both based on kw/h.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#95

One thing that's missing from this is that with current California net metering, for new solar customers, you can't dump a kWh on the grid at noon and then swap it for one at 7pm at the top of the duck curve. New plans are all time-of-use rated, meaning that you can only swap kWh within the same time of use band. At least, that's how it's been explained to me, I have not yet been able to find any explicit rules on PG…

> The reason is that by having distributed solar and storage, you can massively reduce other fixed cost parts of the grid as they age out.

The article also completely ignores the concept that distributed generation can actually reduce infrastructure needs. If you're generating the power at the "last mile" and sending it to your neighbor, that power doesn't travel through a substation, it doesn't travel through long transmission lines that need to be maintained, it's just generated (roughly) where it needs to be, saving you a lot of infrastructure. So it certainly seems "fair" to offset that infrastructure cost at least somewhat - you are providing value to the utility in terms of infrastructure they don't have to build themselves. And they sell that power that you feed back to customers paying for "green energy" at a premium as well.

(note that despite regular peaks occurring later in the day, annual peaks almost always occur during periods of high solar production - it is aircon during summer heatwaves that blows the grid, not cooking dinner. So you are delivering huge value in terms of peaker plants that don't have to be built to run a few days a year during those heatwaves.)

I don't live in California but in 2020 we had heat waves and my local power company blew up 2 substations in my area from the load. That wouldn't have happened with more distributed power generation, solar production is at its peak precisely during those heatwaves that strain the grid so badly, but the utilities were actually making a big push at the time for net metering to be abolished and solar production to be reduced.

And of course we still pay incredibly high transmission costs - we have 8-9c per kWh electricity but my transmission and delivery charges are approximately 12-14c, for a normal suburban area (I'm not out in the boonies), so obviously that money isn't making it into the infrastructure where it needs to be anyway.

(Compounding this issue, of course, is that there are plenty of people who are out in the middle of nowhere, and I'm sure a good chunk of that cost is going to subsidizing them. If we want to talk about market distortions and ignore the greater social good - how about we move away from these hidden subsidies to people living in the middle of nowhere? Make them pay the actual costs of their roads and electric and other services.)

Big picture it's hard to see the pushback against net metering as being anything other than rent-seeking by an entrenched industry. They're charging huge delivery fees and not maintaining the grid, and they're pushing back against remedies literally at the same time as their infrastructure is failing. They're paying you nothing for electricity fed back into the grid, while charging other customers a premium for "green" electricity. Pick a side, it's either valuable or it's not.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#96

In Sweden there are 2 separate charges, one for infrastructure and one for consumption. The infrastructure bill scales with how big your breakers/fuses (English) are while consumption scales with how many KWh you've used. You often have a different infra provider and power provider. For someone living in a condo/apt the infra cost is usually higher than consumption while in houses where heating often is powered by so…

This is common in the US as well actually.

A-10 rates for example in PG&E land have a demand charge -

https://www.pge.com/en_US/small-medium-business/your-account....

Basically, based on breaker size. If you have a 400A breaker you might pay $2,000 / month demand charge. Usage might be small (sometimes these loads are spikey). It's not uncommon for folks to then pay more attention to peak load if you pay based on breaker size effectively.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#97
A huge portion of electric bills are paying for wildfire damage/hardening and for expensive transmission lines. Rooftop solar reduces both, but is not being credited for it in NEM 3.0.

When electricity is generated and consumed locally, it doesn't need to be transmitted across huge distances using expensive transmission infrastructure. There's also less wires that can trigger fires. But infra is the only way regulated utilities are allowed to make a profit.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/11/business/energy-environme...

These increased costs being passed to California consumers could kill electric cars. We're paying $0.30-$0.40 / kwh to PG&E, which pencils out to over $9 / gallon.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a35152087/tesla-model-3-ch...

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this model is common in other utilities in the US (both by water and gas bills are structured this way), with a large meter fee and a consumption charge in line with the resource cost. Electricity could certainly be charged this way (and should), but it would be a huge change in how electricity is billed here, and the PUC would rather just make changes to just the net-metering system rather than open the can of…

That's how it is for electricity in Texas. You pay a delivery charge, and then usage charge, both based on kw/h.

You also pay for power you don't even use, from other power providers, in the case of extreme crisis, it seems. I've never lived there but from the outside Texas's power situation seems broken at best.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#99
I just moved into a new construction house in Colorado with a substantial (23kW) solar installation. It’s been interesting to see how much, in the words of the author, ‘feeding bread to pigs’ I have ended up doing.

The solar installation (which is probably larger than optimal) is dictated by the policy for the house to be “net zero”, which in turn is dictated by a policy based on the size of the house. (In practice, solar is the cheapest way for the builder to get all the way to ‘net zero’ after the usual decent insulation, windows, etc.)

So that’s how I got solar, but now I want to turn it on. Well, this is not in the interest of the utility at all (they lose money), but they still by policy get to ‘approve it’. This required a many-month (and many phone call) process of reviews, approvals, etc. which concluded in the utility activating (installing a meter for) the installation. In total it was maybe 9 months from when the solar was all wired up and sitting in the sun until it was producing any electricity for the world!

Now the utility gives me a choice of two billing options. At the end of each month, excess energy I’ve generated can either be put in a kWh bank and rolled over as credit, or it can be paid out. However, the payout is hilariously low (like $0.01/kWh) so of course everyone chooses the bank.

But now incentives are all screwed up! Since I easily generate more electricity that I will ever use (see above for why policies drove us to an installation larger that necessary) my household has no incentive to conserve at all. E.g. I am heating my garage with an electric heater because it costs me zero.

So the net effect of all of these policies intended to promote conservation are:

1) To drive up the price of housing in an area where that is already one of the big challenges the community is fighting

2) To completely disincentivize any actual conservation

3) To have new solar installations laying fallow for 6-9 months

I don’t know what the solution is, but the problems are pretty easy to see.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#100

I'm shocked by how easily electricity prices are easy to find yet no one knows what theirs is! Example: https://utility.report

How exactly do they come up with a single price per zip-code given that rates are dependent on choice of electricity plan, on-peak vs. off-peak, % of baseline and so forth?
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