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Israel rolls out laser defense system

reuters.com

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Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#221

Post by doctorhandshake »

weatherlite wrote: post #218
doctorhandshake wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get your point but I'd like to be a little more optimistic and flexible about how I see the future playing out. I think at this point writing off Israel as being Zionist and never anything but is a bit like doing the same with the USA around the time of its inception, saying it'll never be anything but a slaveholding colonial fief to the British. I'd like to think there are possible futures where things change for…

Things can also change for the worse though, especially for the Jews living there. just saying.

You won’t hear any arguments from me about that!

Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#222

Post by LegitShady »

RegnisGnaw wrote: post #63
m4rtink wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC (based on hard SF laser defece discussions) there is no perfect mirror, so pump enough MW/GW into it, even just for a short burst and the thing will start to melt or outright vaporize from the bit that it will always absorb. Then it won't be so shiny anymore, absorbing even more energy and so on, until it stops being a solid object. As for erratic flight paths - a physical object can't aim to match the beam stee…

Its more a range issue. Irom Beam has a like a 7 km or mile (I forgot) range. Whereas other like Arrow 2, Arrow 3, or David's Sling has like 100km+ range. Iron Beam is all about cost per interception.

at a 50x reduction in cost per interception than can probably afford to produce a lot more of them in the long run.

Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#223

Post by littlestymaar »

sharikous wrote: post #194
littlestymaar wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I will gloss over the way you speak about Israeli losses. I am pretty sure you wouldn't speak like that ("only 13+67 dead, oh the pity!") if it were your country. Of course I would! We (France) have lost more military than this (and a much much higher ratio among involved soldiers) in extra territorial operations in the past few years and we don't make a big deal about how powerful the African armed groups are… The…

Now I can understand what you are saying. There is definitely something in your point. But it's more complex than that. See, the Palestinian leadership needs to have an enemy too. And you say of the far-right in Israel they are "expansionist and racist", well Hamas/Fatah are arguably worse. And it's not like there would be no enemies and no need for a powerful military once Gaza is conquered and Hamas neutered (Iran?…

> See, the Palestinian leadership needs to have an enemy too. And you say of the far-right in Israel they are "expansionist and racist", well Hamas/Fatah are arguably worse.

I'm not discussing that. But only one side has the power of destroying the other and is instead keeping it alive on purpose. That's why I blame the Isreali government: Hamas is an evil terror group, and they deserve to die.

> And it's not like there would be no enemies and no need for a powerful military once Gaza is conquered and Hamas neutered (Iran? Hezbollah?).

The more enemies an army have, the better for their budget (the US DoD is really good at keeping multiple enemies relevant at the same time). Also, the other actors you mentioned are threats, but Israel is arguably not at war with them right now, which reduces their impact.

And the army is only one side of the coin, the other is the far-right politicians, who really need Hamas to justify everything they do to other Palestinians inside Israel or in the West Bank, neither Iran nor Hezbollah makes good excuse for destroying Palestinians homes for instance.

Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#224

Post by skinnymuch »

doctorhandshake wrote: post #192
skinnymuch wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sometimes I ask people to imagine what it would be like if the inhabitants of a large Native American reservation began shelling a nearby US city after openly stating they will not rest until the USA is wiped from the earth. This is easy. They have some valid claims in principle. They also have essentially no power or weapons. After the initial surprise. They’d be able to do nothing. Or in effect nothing. If the US…

I think we're mostly in agreement here. > What is this example supposed to show? It's an analogy, not an example. It's meant to present a hypothetical, similar situation in another context in order to help people who can't relate to something happening across the world, in a place they've never been, see that situation in a way they can understand. > The saddest part of this example is leaving out the Palestine. It’s…

Yeah you're right. We're essentially entirely in agreement. However, we both see the way Israel [and America and others] are able to use what makes them victims to their advantage. To the point where it is hard to parse through all the data and history of this century and not see it as Israel wants there to always be some one shooting [feeble] rockets into Israel.

I didn't cite the "cutting the grass" quote. My bad.

I don't want to pick a source that others will view as me being biased. I chose Daily Beast and News Week:

"The operative metaphor is often described as “cutting the grass,” meaning a task that must be performed regularly and has no end. There is no solution to security challenges, officials here say, only delays and deterrence....What is "cutting the grass" if not a metaphor for unending conflict?"

"Cutting the grass"—reducing or eliminating actual military threats as they emerge in real time—has been Israel's preferred method, and can be coupled with either of the two others."

--

> I'm not endorsing that outcome, I'm just pointing out that when the US does it, it's considered de rigueur, but when Israel does it, it's considered barbaric.

> barbaric

Children keep getting killed :(. I bring up Yemen quite a bit with recent Russia Ukraine talks. You are right, people quickly overlook things like that. I think that's general tribalist behavior. Not because of the US specifically.

--

Is this true? The only downvoted comments or attacks I've had on Reddit, HN, IG, & Twitter have all been the few times I've discussed the Palestine conflict. There's only one other instance on Twitter where there was enough attacking on me that I had to step back, which was about local US socioeconomic politics. I'm not active on any social media so the sample size is not big or even moderate, but stretches for a decade.

I now never favorite/heart/star/bookmark any Palestinian or Israeli related content on any social media just as a rule of thumb. I had also made it a rule of thumb to never comment on it in public either. I forgot you can't delete HN comments after a short period of time.

I co-founded a non-profit, organically growing, camaraderie driven online co-working community. Politics is no place for a community like that, but one off or short discussions can happen. The only topic I can think of that I would never touch with a 10 foot pole in any capacity is Israel/Palestine.

AOC had to take back any thing she said about Israel. Ilhan Omar has been skewered so much by a large portion of people, even when Israeli and/or Jewish people defend her, it doesn't count or what have you. I heard of cutting the grass from Noam Chomsky who was citing it from the person who either coined it or coined it for middle eastern politics. It is not uncommon or strange these days that citing Chomsky's, who is Jewish, views on Israel/Palestine can be seen as indicative of being "anti-semitic". Which of course in my case is not true at all. As I've said, I support Israel and Israelis right to their current land. However this also shows why this is such a hard thing to ever bring up.

Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#225

Post by skinnymuch »

golergka wrote: post #183
skinnymuch wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’ve most the goal posts and entire discussion. What do Palestinians especially in Gaza, have to do with Arabs as a whole? Your original comment specifically said Palestine. So the topic is Palestine and Israel only. And that’s what it was when I did my comment. Also to note, Arab countries don’t care about Palestine. Egypt actively hurts Palestinians for example. Arab country leadership are awful. Otherwise your c…

> What do Palestinians especially in Gaza, have to do with Arabs as a whole? I'm sorry, but I honestly don't see any way of continuing a good faith, productive and civilised discussion after this question. I always try to steelman my opponent's arguments, but I just can't find a way to look at this and not perceive it as trolling.

Interesting. Your comment appears to show you were never speaking in good faith to me. Which is sad.

I can sort of see how people who have a bias against Palestinian and are in related bubbles and surroundings like mine as a white collar Westerner to be taken a back by a valid question like that. It's unfortunate and sad, but I get it.

I don't get how it could ever be perceived as trolling from some one who is calm and trying to look for good faith.

I am sure if I email the person in Gaza and the 2-3 in Israel I communicate with to ask the same Q, they'll respond with something like "you mean the common average Palestinian trying to live their life? Not much".

--

Another factor that now may show you were never/not in good faith is not responding to my inquiry of "many more were just killed". I even switched my IP to an Israeli to get better Israeli sources. I could not find any stating what you wrote. Not close. I'd think you'd want to show that that what you wrote did in fact happen. Since you won't, I'll say from my checking of sources, close to 900K were pushed out of the Arab world. Counting up different loose numbers of the ones killed, almost entirely looking at pro-Israeli, pro-Jewish sources, gave a number less than 5% of 900K being killed.

Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#226

Post by skinnymuch »

nradov wrote: post #193
skinnymuch wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They? Do you not see how offensive that is to group together 1.7M people like that? When if that same sort of wording happens for almost any other situation, it’s called out as wrong, which it obviously is, very quickly. There is a common dog whistle and coded word sort of stuff especially recently with China. Instead of specify the authoritarian Govt and elite in China, one may say the Chinese used to be X but now t…

Palestinians literally elected Hamas in a democratic election. So actions by Hamas apparently represent the will of the people. That's hardly comparable to China and North Korea, which are authoritarian dictatorships where the governments were never elected.

Palestinians did that under desperation 15+ years ago. No elections since then. Would you call it democratic still if we didnt hold Senate, House, or Presidential elections in the US for the next 15 years?

Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#227

Post by skinnymuch »

LorenPechtel wrote: post #220
skinnymuch wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They? Do you not see how offensive that is to group together 1.7M people like that? When if that same sort of wording happens for almost any other situation, it’s called out as wrong, which it obviously is, very quickly. There is a common dog whistle and coded word sort of stuff especially recently with China. Instead of specify the authoritarian Govt and elite in China, one may say the Chinese used to be X but now t…

Obviously, I was referring to the people in power--it doesn't make sense otherwise. Note, however, that that leaves two choices: 1) They're responsible for their government. The plight of the people is the result of their action. 2) They are being oppressed by *their* government. Blame that government for their plight, not Israel. In neither case is Israel responsible for cratering the Palestinian economy.

- Are all the people in North Korea or Russia or many African countries responsible for their governments? The Gaza govt has not allowed any sort of elections or voting or voice of the people of any kind in 15 years. Add on to everything listed below and the population and people don't have enough consistent basic accommodations to be sure they are well versed enough to be able to properly decide or choose things like govt related things.

- Gaza is being oppressed and heavily controlled by Israel and Egypt as well. Gaza's govt, "people in power", do not have the same power as almost any other government.

- Your comment does make sense though. You used "they" three times. The way you used it is reminiscent of what I said it is reminiscent of. Your comment was a response to a response that was referring to "they" as all Palestinians, as was as sibling comment of yours. This comment appears to re-inforce that with your (1).

--

Re: economy. From wikipedia:

"An extensive Israeli buffer zone within the Strip renders much land off-limits to Gaza's Palestinians.[14]" _Note: Gaza is not in control of this_

"According to Al Jazeera, "19 human rights groups urged Israel to lift its siege on Gaza". The UN has also urged the lifting of the blockade,[17][18][19] while a report by UNCTAD, prepared for the UN General Assembly and released on 25 November 2020, said that Gaza's economy was on the verge of collapse and that it was essential to lift the blockade.[20][21]" _Note: seige, blockage are not something Gaza controls. It is Israel and Egypt._

"Due to the Israeli and Egyptian border closures and the Israeli sea and air blockade, the population is not free to leave or enter the Gaza Strip, nor is it allowed to freely import or export goods." _Same as the above Note_

"Israel maintains direct external control over Gaza and indirect control over life within Gaza: it controls Gaza's air and maritime space, as well as six of Gaza's seven land crossings. It reserves the right to enter Gaza at will with its military and maintains a no-go buffer zone within the Gaza territory. Gaza is dependent on Israel for water, electricity, telecommunications, and other utilities.[22]" _Same as the above Note_

"Despite the 2005 Israeli disengagement from Gaza,[22] the United Nations, international human rights organisations, and the majority of governments and legal commentators consider the territory to be still occupied by Israel, supported by additional restrictions placed on Gaza by Egypt." _Same as the above Note_

Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#228

Post by skinnymuch »

LorenPechtel wrote: post #117
littlestymaar wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe stop starving and killing the children living in Gaza who will then make proud soldiers of the Hamas when they grow up, repeating the endless circle of violence? And maybe stop encouraging Qatar to fund Hamas[1]? Yes, you read that right, and the source is a reputable Israeli newspaper. Hamas is a really convenient opponent for the Israeli government: they are evil, corrupt and basically harmless, but they a…

Haaretz isn't a *reputable* Israeli newspaper. The children of Gaza die because Hamas wants that to happen. And look at the demographics of those "children"--most are 16 and 17. And the only one starving children of Gaza is Hamas.

Most children who die by Israeli retaliation being of a certain age does not mean all. Normally, if not always, it's considered a tremendous tragedy when you have dozens and dozens if not more pre-teen and younger children innocently dying over a conflict in this century.

Hamas is evil. Sure they want to happen. Children being murdered is still happening though!

Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#229

Post by skinnymuch »

LorenPechtel wrote: post #120
golergka wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't make any sense. The whole point is to get a bigger IDF response, bloodier palestinian casualties, louder western media coverage and larger help packages to pocket.

No. Hamas doesn't want too much Israeli response--Israel is too good at targeting the higher-up people. They want to provoke some shooting but they don't want Israel to be serious enough about it that Hamas' human shields aren't enough protection.

Yes. Which is so tragic. Perhaps I'm not aware of what is a Pro-Israel source or not, but when googling "mowing the grass" as the IDF's tactic against Gaza. It appeared as if most political sides agreed that is the tactic being taken. Different political sides viewed the morality and usefulness of that differently. But they all appeared to agree.

Hamas isn't "mowing the grass". The IDF is.

I'm not sure what a solution could actually be. However mowing the grass has clearly shown it benefits the evils of Hamas and other higher ups in Gaza. It keeps the current status quo in tact which gives Israel some benefits too.

Let's (I am using "let us" as an American whose country is allied with Israel and as someone who supports Israel's right to their land and do not want innocent people to die) not "mow the grass" any more.

Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#230

Post by skinnymuch »

nsxwolf wrote: post #90
guerrilla wrote: post #75

Lots of news about Israel today. Amnesty International just released a new report condemning Israel as an apartheid state.[1] 1. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-...

This harms the credibility of Amnesty International. There are many criticisms you can lay against Israel regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but "apartheid" doesn't pass the laugh test.

This isn't true. There have been numerous organizations of all ranges reporting similar views.

This illogical pattern of assuming a word or concept does not evolve is far too common. The world and people learn from history. Apartheids now and in the future will usually not be the way America was 70 years ago or South Africa 35 years ago. Apartheid may be too serious and specific of a word. We don't have another word to go to besides apartheid. Were the Jim Crow laws and behavior of America from Reconstruction through 1960s not apartheid? Technically not. They didn't go far enough. However, it's reductionist to say it's not apartheid but then not provide a label to practices that are cruel and inhumane and overlap with a majority of apartheid.

If Amnesty International or another organization referred to it as analogous or incredibly similar to Jim Crow Law days. That's hard to do. I don't know expect any one outside the US to know what that is. "apartheid" on the other hand is a world wide known term. So, yeah, this all feels reductionist.

Similarly, tech companies learned from IBM and Microsoft's bullying and monopolistic practices of the 80s and 90s. All the same underlying principles of bullying, EEE, and so much more have been able to evolve and become more subtle with the new current tech giants (including Microsoft ).

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