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Normalized crash data shows Autopilot is much less safe than Tesla claims

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Re: Normalized crash data shows Autopilot is much less safe than Tesla claims

#181

Post by masklinn »

mijamo wrote: post #126
JoshTko wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair Boston city roads are like horse carriage routes that were converted to streets and will probably one of the last places FSD optimizes for.

Those roads seem much easier to drive on than basically any city I've been in Europe. Paris is 10x more complex than that for instance. If FSD can't handle that there's really not of a use case apart from highways in Europe. To give you an idea of the incredible features in some cities, I have recently driven in Rennes where they found a good idea to makes roads with one single central lane for cars with wide bicycle…

Iirc that concept actually comes from the netherlands. I’ve seen videos on Dutch road design showing that, i had no idea they’d been implemented in france.

Re: Normalized crash data shows Autopilot is much less safe than Tesla claims

#183

Post by FireBeyond »

maxdo wrote: post #179
andrepd wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I am not a Tesla-hater though — I just thought it was odd that the company was playing quite so fast and loose with their safety claims. If you're still surprised by this you've not been paying attention to how Telsa operates.

Quoted post unavailable.

> Facts: Tesla was the first to introduce such wide range of safety features in every car they sold.

Please itemize these "wide range of safety features" for us that other manufacturers do not have or did not have until Tesla innovated them.

> They invest in own crash test facilities. Only Volvo is kind of on par.

Audi owns one, for just one.

Re: Normalized crash data shows Autopilot is much less safe than Tesla claims

#184

Post by jacquesm »

rtikulit wrote: post #176
NikolaNovak wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean... I am "Tesla Hater" in that I don't like the direction they're proceeding in; but every human being I ever met in real actual life does rolling stops under some conditions. Last time I can confidently state that "I never rolled through a stop at very slow speed" is when I was 17, and only NOW do I realize how much of an annoying bum I was :P. So if a car does a rolling stop through a stop sign when there are…

On a public road I almost always come to a full stop, and if I don't I recognize it as an error. That's the law and there are very good reasons for it. It's an unambiguous standard of performance, for example. Arguments for rolling stops based on personal utility are selfish, IMHO, and arguments pleading utility to others are disingenuous--the rolling stoppers say that it's safer to rolling stop because of the rollin…

No post body was provided.

Re: Normalized crash data shows Autopilot is much less safe than Tesla claims

#185

Post by Grustaf »

ipaddr wrote: post #164
enlyth wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was a kid and we were living in Vancouver, my mum told me how she did a 'rolling stop' through a stop sign at 4am in the morning with empty streets, and a cop car noticed it and gave her a massive fine. She was in tears because my family wasn't earning much money at the time. For some reason I still remember this story decades later and always come to a full stop at stop signs, that's how I was taught in drivi…

Sounds like a ticket to fight as the cop working at 4am would have a hard time showing up to court.

That's a very odd reason to contest a fine. Clearly it was justified.

Re: Normalized crash data shows Autopilot is much less safe than Tesla claims

#186

Post by ceejayoz »

nja wrote: post #44

I was just watching this video of a Tesla trying and miserably failing to drive itself through the streets of Boston: https://twitter.com/TaylorOgan/status/1488555256162172928 A number of these near-crashes seem to be pretty odd errors (a couple of times it just decided to drive on the wrong side of the street?) -- albeit ones that one _could_ see drivers unfamiliar with the area making. If a human driver started dri…

I like the guy who jumps in on the comments with "you're doing it wrong".

https://twitter.com/ButchSurewood/status/1488602615407681541

Isn't the whole idea that you're not doing anything?

Re: Normalized crash data shows Autopilot is much less safe than Tesla claims

#187

Post by laomai »

Regarding some of the conversations about programming something to obey the law or obey human convention:

- it’s tricky because the people on the roads expect human convention and drive for that

- as long as there is a mix of humans that drive by convention, it’s probably best to err on the side of following human convention to some degree

Case in point: center lane

When I first started using autopilot on two lane roads the car would stay dead center in the lane. If a car was coming towards my in the opposite lane, it began to notice humans would veer away from center to provide more buffer between themselves and the oncoming car.

Because I didn’t want to piss other drivers off, I would often disengage and drift to the right of my lane while the oncoming car approached me. If I didn’t do that, there was always a last minute extra drift away from me by the other car.. the conventionally expected buffer distance wasn’t enough to make them feel comfortable due to unexpected (lack of) behavior.

It’s not a law / no law issue above. But I have similar experiences navigation into roundabouts with crosswalks in front of them (autopilot stops at empty crosswalk where normal driver would cruise through until the stop line to check for cars in the roundabout — and if none were there might pass through with a rolling stop/check.

Re: Normalized crash data shows Autopilot is much less safe than Tesla claims

#188

Post by leobg »

spywaregorilla wrote: post #61

I find this headline to be pretty misleading. * It doesn't find anything to suggest Autopilot is less safe than claimed. It finds reasons to believe Autopilot's improvement on safety relative to humans is less than claimed * Under both the road adjusted model; and the road+age adjusted model, Autopilot outperforms the average driver on average. Not by much, but its there. * Everyone here seems to be assuming that the…

You’ve been commenting on a tweet by Edward Niedermeyer. The guy who created a site called “Tesla Death Watch” back in 2008.

These downvotes have got nothing to do with you or with what you pointed out. Just some people here with sour grapes.

Re: Normalized crash data shows Autopilot is much less safe than Tesla claims

#189

Post by IshKebab »

sandworm101 wrote: post #45
djanogo wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can't be just any "average driver", they should be compared against "average driver" who just bought $40-50K NEW car.

>> "average driver" who just bought $40-50K NEW car. Driver and buyer/owner are different things. Few teenagers ever buy a Tesla, but they certainly drive them. A car cannot only be safe in the hands of the rich initial buyer who lives in a nice climate. It must be safe in all the other people who that owner may let drive. It must also be safe for subsequent second and third owners, people who might not be wealthy en…

Uhm, I don't know what insanely rich middle eastern country you're from but in most of the world teenagers do not generally drive Teslas!!

Re: Normalized crash data shows Autopilot is much less safe than Tesla claims

#190

Post by FireBeyond »

bambax wrote: post #151
NikolaNovak wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean... I am "Tesla Hater" in that I don't like the direction they're proceeding in; but every human being I ever met in real actual life does rolling stops under some conditions. Last time I can confidently state that "I never rolled through a stop at very slow speed" is when I was 17, and only NOW do I realize how much of an annoying bum I was :P. So if a car does a rolling stop through a stop sign when there are…

> Yes it's legal IDK about the US, but in France the speed limit is a target speed; if conditions are good (weather, visibility, traffic) you're supposed to drive at or near maximum speed. It's illegal to drive too slow, and there's a specific fine for this. https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/article_lc/LEGIARTI0000... [in French]

In Australia (I left 15 years ago) it was stated that you were required to drive at the _maximum_ speed that met the conditions:

- not exceeding posted speed limit

- appropriate for environmental conditions

- your ability to safely control the vehicle

And failure to do so could be fined.

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