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New lightweight material is stronger than steel

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Re: New lightweight material is stronger than steel

#91
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve often heard that spider silk is stronger per kg (or is it per m^3?) than steel. Are they talking about pulling, compressing, sliding, or all of the above?

Pulling (tensile), which is also the direction steel is unusually strong in (from a materials perspective). Compression wise it’s close to a wet noodle the way it’s manufacturable (though that has more to do with cost/practical production/gathering methods - if we could get a solid chunk of it I imagine it would be pretty strong in compression). Sliding, it’s a fiber, so very weak in that sense (barring the same scen…

As I recall my material science, it's not so much that steel is weak in compression but, if you have a rod of steel (i.e. much longer than it is thick), if you compress it, it will buckle and shear. As you suggest--I'd have to look up the numbers--but a large cube of steel probably has similar strength with tensile and compressive loads.

ADDED: In fact, if you deform a supported I-beam you get similar amounts of tension and compression on the bottom and top respectively at the mid-point of the beam (given a variety of assumptions).

Re: New lightweight material is stronger than steel

#92
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's potentially a thermoset plastic in which case it should be able to resist somewhat high temperatures (maybe 300C). So not fireproof but not terrible either.

As a comparison, various types of insulation are rated for 60/90 minutes at 1000 degrees Celsius, while some types of brick are rated for 180 minutes. If this material can't sustain similar temperatures, it's unlikely it will be used in construction.

Can I ask how you know these things? Materials science is pretty far outside my area of expertise but I'd love to get a basic understanding of it.

Re: New lightweight material is stronger than steel

#93

Maybe a stupid thought, but could a carbon-based building material be the best possible news for carbon sequestration? I mean, we humans need a lot of buildings.

I'd argue that most of our building in North America are built from carbon based materials, wood.

Re: New lightweight material is stronger than steel

#94
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve often heard that spider silk is stronger per kg (or is it per m^3?) than steel. Are they talking about pulling, compressing, sliding, or all of the above?

Plenty of things are stronger than steel on a per pound basis. For instance, many aluminum alloys have about 60-80% the tensile strength of steel, but only 1/3rd the weight.

Titanium even more so.

For those, they are actively swapped around where cost vs weight trade offs happen.

steel vs aluminum vs magnesium, vs titanium in engineering application, where for example engine blocks, airplane parts, car parts, battery components, etc. all have a long history of this.

It’s a complicated process because the trade offs are not simple cost/weight/strength.

Steel has an nearly infinite fatigue lifetime for instance, so steel springs are great.

Aluminum does not, so aluminum springs are terrible - among other things. No amount of weight savings can likely fix that problem in a useful way.

These pose big challenges in aircraft in particular where aluminum skins and fuselages make flight doable/economic, but means pressurized aircraft in particular have a finite lifespan in pressurization cycles/takeoffs and landings before they fall apart, no matter how nicely you treat them.

Several major accidents (including the top of an airliner coming off and sucking a flight attendant out over the pacific on the way to Hawaii) happened before this was fully understood.

Titanium is in theory much better, but is incredibly difficult to work with(requiring forgings in most cases, and being almost unmachinable), and very expensive as the bond it forms with oxygen is so strong the normal fluorine based processing used with Aluminum won’t work. Yeah, you read that right.

Fire danger (such as magnesium engine blocks burning) is also a non trivial thing to mitigate. Titanium can be one of the worst offenders here (powdered titanium fires can burn SAND used to try to put it out as an oxidizer), which makes working with it hazardous in some cases. Iron, which will also burn, is generally so mellow when it does that burning it is a normal operation while scrapping and cutting it and you can’t get a runaway from doing so except in truly difficult to achieve circumstances (it’s what an oxy-acetylene cutting torch is doing).

Re: New lightweight material is stronger than steel

#95
Any time I see one of these numerous claims, I apply the following question set:

[1] What are the other metrics to consider? Compression, shear, tensile, and so on (another comment mentions this)

[2] What are the expected production costs?

[3] Are the costs internalized for production? (I.e. no more teflon ecodisasters)

[4] Where should it be used?

"Anything" can be "stronger" than "steel" -- it matters what the use cases are. Lasers are great to send signals, but we don't want to establish worldwide mesh protocols with it

Re: New lightweight material is stronger than steel

#96
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with concerns about recyclability. I would also raise concerns about the renewability and/or toxicity of the base materials. If they are petroleum-based, this feels like a losing proposition.

Unfortunately the recyclability and the lack of toxicity are contradictory, they cannot be satisfied simultaneously for this kind of materials. As long as the 2-dimensional polymeric sheets do not decompose, they will not be toxic, as they cannot enter a living cell (in the form of fine dust they could cause the same problems as any mineral dust, e.g. respiratory damage through purely mechanical action). However if t…

Plastics can be toxic by leaching additives without the polymer itself breaking down. Moreover, much of the damage caused by microplastics (i.e. only mechanically broken down) is poorly understood. At the very least, they seem to harbour novel collections of microbes that aren't necessarily benign.

Re: New lightweight material is stronger than steel

#97

Just a heads up - strength is not a single metric. There is tensile (pulling), compression, and shear (sliding) strength. There's also Young's modulus (how much something stretches), fatigue limits (steel can work perpetually with deformations under a certain threshold). There's also specific strength (strength per kg) vs strength per volume and strength per dollar. Steel also comes in lots of different flavors, with…

> steel can work perpetually with deformations under a certain threshold[*]

[*] Within a temperature range of about ~-30 °C to ~400 °C. Below that and the toughness goes way down so that it's prone to cracking. Above that and carbon starts to work its way into all those crystal structure discontinuities, preventing some percentage of the strain from being relieved each stress cycle (the "creep range").

That's just for carbon steels. Stainless has a different set of problems.

Re: New lightweight material is stronger than steel

#99
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a comparison, various types of insulation are rated for 60/90 minutes at 1000 degrees Celsius, while some types of brick are rated for 180 minutes. If this material can't sustain similar temperatures, it's unlikely it will be used in construction.

Can I ask how you know these things? Materials science is pretty far outside my area of expertise but I'd love to get a basic understanding of it.

There are a bunch of standards for material fire classification, which may differ from country to country, but they're not really available to read online for free most of the time. You can do some googling around A1 fire classes, EI fire rating and so on.

A useful thing to know is that a house fire revolves around 800 degrees Celsius typically, so you should expect various materials that have a fire resistance rating to take more than that for a sustained period.

Re: New lightweight material is stronger than steel

#100
post #91
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pulling (tensile), which is also the direction steel is unusually strong in (from a materials perspective). Compression wise it’s close to a wet noodle the way it’s manufacturable (though that has more to do with cost/practical production/gathering methods - if we could get a solid chunk of it I imagine it would be pretty strong in compression). Sliding, it’s a fiber, so very weak in that sense (barring the same scen…

As I recall my material science, it's not so much that steel is weak in compression but, if you have a rod of steel (i.e. much longer than it is thick), if you compress it, it will buckle and shear. As you suggest--I'd have to look up the numbers--but a large cube of steel probably has similar strength with tensile and compressive loads. ADDED: In fact, if you deform a supported I-beam you get similar amounts of tens…

> but a large cube of steel probably has similar strength with tensile and compressive loads.

Not just similar, but pretty much identical from what I recalled from my uni classes. Wikipedia for structural materials (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structural_material) also has this bit -

>Steel is equally strong in tension and compression.

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