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Israel rolls out laser defense system

reuters.com

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Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#211

Post by weatherlite »

SuoDuanDao wrote: post #84
hadlock wrote: post #32

I'm curious where the tipping point is, where the military response exceeds the financial cost of a political response. It's one thing to have tensions simmering on both sides of a border, it's another that one side feels wronged and is lobbing bombs over the fence. The fact that they're having to develop a laser defense system to defend against lobbed bombs seems like it's time to reevaluate political solutions.

There are really only three solutions. One, Israel annexes Palestine in its current form, and ceases to be a Jewish state. Two, Israel annexes Palestine after removing its current inhabitants. Three, Israel stays in a state of low-grade warfare while carving out the most desireable bits of Palestine for its settlers as its population grows. One is untenable for obvious reasons. Two is untenable until memories of the…

> I think a big mistake we in the west make when thinking about 'solutions' to the conflict is assuming both sides want peace. That's not been my impression on hearing anyone from either side talk

Israel has everything to gain by a true peace deal with Palestine. Palestinians though have everything to lose - their entire identity is intertwined with returning to their old homes from 1948. I don't think there is symmetry; one side basically "won" and would really like to live in peace if it was possible (barring a few religious Jewish settlers), but the meaning of peace for the other side is basically letting go of its identity and admit defeat.

Palestinians can't let go of what happened in 48, it's as foundational for them as Zionism is for Israelis. A lot of people miss this subtle point but if you really listen to Palestinians it's all there.

While if you really listen to (most) Israelis - its mostly about security. Most Israelis don't give much of a hoot about the settlements.

Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#212

Post by ocschwar »

littlestymaar wrote: post #184
raxxorrax wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree profoundly. You say that it wasn't a war because Israel didn't lose too many people? Perhaps the aggressor should have thought about that before starting a war. Israel put a lot of effort in defending itself, so your premise isn't even correct. It is a perverse rationalization that doesn't even warrant a serious response. Frame it as colonial as you wish, the fact is a systematic prosecution of Jews in alm…

> I disagree profoundly. You say that it wasn't a war because Israel didn't lose too many people? Perhaps the aggressor should have thought about that before starting a war. Its not a war, there is no state involved, just a terror group in Gaza, conveniently left in charge there, while curiously Tsahal is perfectly capable of shutting down any uprising in the territory they want to annex (the West bank), intriguing i…

When you mention the murderous violence that drove Mizrahi Jews into Israel in the same paragraph where you mention the snobbery they faced in Israel, you're not doing much for your credibility.

Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#213

Post by weatherlite »

doctorhandshake wrote: post #108
golergka wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I assume this implies killing all Israelis too? Yes. > Quite a statement to make about the vast majority of Gaza citizens that can barely survive. Talk to them. Personally, I think that the reason this conflict is so misunderstood in the West is that you guys are just too distant from the cultural norms of the region, and literally can't believe that millions of people could openly and unapologetically be pro-genoc…

I agree with this. I find it amazing that the world expects Israeli leadership to ignore the stated goal of Hamas is to eradicate Israel[1]. Sometimes I ask people to imagine what it would be like if the inhabitants of a large Native American reservation began shelling a nearby US city after openly stating they will not rest until the USA is wiped from the earth. I’m choosing the Native American hypothetical advisedl…

> I’m not a Zionist per se but I get it

Why not? I mean if you're not a Zionist you're basically pro Israel being dismantled, because Israel is a Zionist state. You can say you're a Zionist in the 67 borders, or anything of that sort, but I don't get what's so hard in acknowledging Israel's right to exist. I get that it pisses off many progressives, but still. They'll get over it.

Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#214

Post by doctorhandshake »

weatherlite wrote: post #213
doctorhandshake wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this. I find it amazing that the world expects Israeli leadership to ignore the stated goal of Hamas is to eradicate Israel[1]. Sometimes I ask people to imagine what it would be like if the inhabitants of a large Native American reservation began shelling a nearby US city after openly stating they will not rest until the USA is wiped from the earth. I’m choosing the Native American hypothetical advisedl…

> I’m not a Zionist per se but I get it Why not? I mean if you're not a Zionist you're basically pro Israel being dismantled, because Israel is a Zionist state. You can say you're a Zionist in the 67 borders, or anything of that sort, but I don't get what's so hard in acknowledging Israel's right to exist. I get that it pisses off many progressives, but still. They'll get over it.

I think that's a reductionist viewpoint, both to say that if you're not a Zionist you're in favor of Israel being dismantled, and to imply that you can't be pro-Israel without being a Zionist. There's more to Zionism than being for or against the existence of Israel.

I'm a progressive. I have family in Israel. I would be very upset if Israel were to cease to exist. And yet I don't agree with all Zionist principles, eg I believe that a combination of a diaspora and a homeland makes our race more resilient to future pogroms defensively and more familiar and thus less easily Othered by other cultures, an idea more aligned with other schools of Jewish thought.

Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#215

Post by dillondoyle »

jazzyjackson wrote: post #154
AussieWog93 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but moving Tel Aviv to the moon would quite expensive and you would lose the mediterranean climate On the flip side, you'd be really far away from Iran.

Now that you mention it, having people able to flee to moon/space pods/mars changes the "Mutually Assured Destruction" math.

Maybe not so much. Until an outsider in the belt doesn't care about their people and decides to attack with asteroids lol. I miss the expanse.

Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#216

Post by weatherlite »

doctorhandshake wrote: post #214
weatherlite wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’m not a Zionist per se but I get it Why not? I mean if you're not a Zionist you're basically pro Israel being dismantled, because Israel is a Zionist state. You can say you're a Zionist in the 67 borders, or anything of that sort, but I don't get what's so hard in acknowledging Israel's right to exist. I get that it pisses off many progressives, but still. They'll get over it.

I think that's a reductionist viewpoint, both to say that if you're not a Zionist you're in favor of Israel being dismantled, and to imply that you can't be pro-Israel without being a Zionist. There's more to Zionism than being for or against the existence of Israel. I'm a progressive. I have family in Israel. I would be very upset if Israel were to cease to exist. And yet I don't agree with all Zionist principles, e…

> I think that's a reductionist viewpoint, both to say that if you're not a Zionist you're in favor of Israel being dismantled, and to imply that you can't be pro-Israel without being a Zionist. There's more to Zionism than being for or against the existence of Israel.

You're really can't be pro-Israel without being a Zionist though, Israel is a Zionist state. It's like being pro American but wishing for it to be returned to the Indians, I really don't see how this works.

Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#217

Post by doctorhandshake »

weatherlite wrote: post #216
doctorhandshake wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's a reductionist viewpoint, both to say that if you're not a Zionist you're in favor of Israel being dismantled, and to imply that you can't be pro-Israel without being a Zionist. There's more to Zionism than being for or against the existence of Israel. I'm a progressive. I have family in Israel. I would be very upset if Israel were to cease to exist. And yet I don't agree with all Zionist principles, e…

> I think that's a reductionist viewpoint, both to say that if you're not a Zionist you're in favor of Israel being dismantled, and to imply that you can't be pro-Israel without being a Zionist. There's more to Zionism than being for or against the existence of Israel. You're really can't be pro-Israel without being a Zionist though, Israel is a Zionist state. It's like being pro American but wishing for it to be ret…

I get your point but I'd like to be a little more optimistic and flexible about how I see the future playing out. I think at this point writing off Israel as being Zionist and never anything but is a bit like doing the same with the USA around the time of its inception, saying it'll never be anything but a slaveholding colonial fief to the British.

I'd like to think there are possible futures where things change for the better, and those are the thoughts that give me hope for Israel and for Palestine as well.

Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#218

Post by weatherlite »

doctorhandshake wrote: post #217
weatherlite wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think that's a reductionist viewpoint, both to say that if you're not a Zionist you're in favor of Israel being dismantled, and to imply that you can't be pro-Israel without being a Zionist. There's more to Zionism than being for or against the existence of Israel. You're really can't be pro-Israel without being a Zionist though, Israel is a Zionist state. It's like being pro American but wishing for it to be ret…

I get your point but I'd like to be a little more optimistic and flexible about how I see the future playing out. I think at this point writing off Israel as being Zionist and never anything but is a bit like doing the same with the USA around the time of its inception, saying it'll never be anything but a slaveholding colonial fief to the British. I'd like to think there are possible futures where things change for…

Things can also change for the worse though, especially for the Jews living there. just saying.

Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#219

Post by Protostome »

sandworm101 wrote: post #21

I will believe it when I see it. Focusing that much light on a small moving object, through layered and moving air, with an intensity to burn through metal would be an achievement. Burning through enough of that metal to degrade a falling rocket (as opposed to during boost phase of flight) is even harder. For all the talk about cost reduction, have a look at what realworld laser armor costs. Painting the nosecone of…

Theoretically, the laser doesn't need to "burn" through the metal, i.e melting it. it only needs to heat it beyond or close to the detonation temperature of the fuel that powers the rocket.

Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#220

Post by LorenPechtel »

skinnymuch wrote: post #153
LorenPechtel wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gaza used to be the most prosperous Arab nation that didn't have oil. That's not good for recruiting cannon fodder so they launched the second intifada to destroy the economy. They focus on destroying Israel because it brings them money.

They? Do you not see how offensive that is to group together 1.7M people like that? When if that same sort of wording happens for almost any other situation, it’s called out as wrong, which it obviously is, very quickly. There is a common dog whistle and coded word sort of stuff especially recently with China. Instead of specify the authoritarian Govt and elite in China, one may say the Chinese used to be X but now t…

Obviously, I was referring to the people in power--it doesn't make sense otherwise. Note, however, that that leaves two choices:

1) They're responsible for their government. The plight of the people is the result of their action.

2) They are being oppressed by *their* government. Blame that government for their plight, not Israel.

In neither case is Israel responsible for cratering the Palestinian economy.

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