mmWave radar, you won't see it coming • Hacker News Board

Re: mmWave radar, you won't see it coming

#121

Post by KaiserPro » Wed, Feb 02, 2022, 9:43 AM UTC

transpute wrote: post #49

> Because mmWave radar doesn’t process visual light, what it sees is not personally identifiable. With machine learning improvements, identification and more are possible. From a 2021 paper on IEEE 802.11bf Wi-Fi Sensing, https://arxiv.org/pdf/2103.14918.pdf > Indeed, it has been shown that SENS-based classifiers can infer privacy-critical information such as keyboard typing, gesture recognition and activity tracking…

I was about to come and say the same thing.

Its perfectly possible to create feature descriptors for 60gig radar, and use it to image rooms, things and possibly people.

Its a privacy problem we currently are trying to overcome in AR. The problem is that because feature descriptors are so small, researchers assume that they don't contain PII. So its going to take a scandal before its taken seriously.

Given that most of FAANG are making some sort of 3d map, I'm sure we are going to get pictures of people's bedrooms leaking soon enough.

Re: mmWave radar, you won't see it coming

#122

Post by emn13 » Wed, Feb 02, 2022, 10:05 AM UTC

doctor_eval wrote: post #116

dheera wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, the material has a bug that wasn't discovered until recently, so we fix the bug and re-deploy the material. It's that simple. Just embed some carbon fibers or something in the swim suit, there are tons of ways to block UV. It's like if your car seatbelts have a bug you issue a product recall. Same thing.

You do realise that you have to add this to every swimsuit on the planet, right? And all other clothes that may exhibit it this behaviour? It is not the material that’s buggy, it’s new technology which can look under clothes and damage privacy that’s the problem.

Not to mention changing materials would likely have continuous costs, and will impact the materials properties and longevity - potentially in ways that just don't add up to a feasible product.

And then there's the fact that this is a hugely international business, so unless we convince the whole world to do this, we'll be impacting supply lines and flexibility there too.

The whole undertaking seems like it would have an absurd scope - just to avoid adding IR filters that cameras need anyhow to achieve accurate color reproduction, and therefore most cameras already include!

Re: mmWave radar, you won't see it coming

#123

Post by hungryforcodes » Wed, Feb 02, 2022, 10:05 AM UTC

dathinab wrote: post #69

transpute wrote: post #49

> Because mmWave radar doesn’t process visual light, what it sees is not personally identifiable. With machine learning improvements, identification and more are possible. From a 2021 paper on IEEE 802.11bf Wi-Fi Sensing, https://arxiv.org/pdf/2103.14918.pdf > Indeed, it has been shown that SENS-based classifiers can infer privacy-critical information such as keyboard typing, gesture recognition and activity tracking…

Hm, I the EU due to GDPR this services are required to make you opt in to them. Does that mean many of this applications are outright illegal in the EU, due to not having a good way to handle the case where the user doesn't opt-in?

Well it's nice that the most well behaving countries (not that they are THAT well behaved) play nice -- but for countries in mmmm...Asia, Africa and the Middle East this will be a boon, sadly.

Re: mmWave radar, you won't see it coming

#124

Post by l33tman » Wed, Feb 02, 2022, 10:24 AM UTC

hornej wrote: post #63

krasin wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By not exposing anyone I meant reconstructing an image. Identification is a different story and there are multiple ways on how to achieve that (heartbeat classification is an obvious one). If you have ideas how to reconstruct an image with 4 receivers / 2-3 transmitters, please, buy a dev kit from TI (they cost https://www.mouser.com/c/?q=mmwave ) and show us a demo.

I have a lot of experience with TI's IWR6843AOP chip and dev kit. It has 3 transmitters and 4 receivers and it'd be impossible to create a facial reconstruction with it.

Is it possible to grab the raw ADC outputs from that dev kit alone into the PC by USB or is another ADC kit or something needed?

Re: mmWave radar, you won't see it coming

#125

Post by nynyny7 » Wed, Feb 02, 2022, 10:47 AM UTC

Hm, the article makes it sound as if mmWave radars are a fairly new addition to cars. But 77 GHz radar sensors have been in cars since over a decade now, thanks to suppliers such as Bosch and Continental.

Re: mmWave radar, you won't see it coming

#126

Post by dathinab » Wed, Feb 02, 2022, 11:10 AM UTC

hungryforcodes wrote: post #123

dathinab wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm, I the EU due to GDPR this services are required to make you opt in to them. Does that mean many of this applications are outright illegal in the EU, due to not having a good way to handle the case where the user doesn't opt-in?

Well it's nice that the most well behaving countries (not that they are THAT well behaved) play nice -- but for countries in mmmm...Asia, Africa and the Middle East this will be a boon, sadly.

Yes I would say WIFI 7 falls under irresponsible technology.

Re: mmWave radar, you won't see it coming

#127

Post by VBprogrammer » Wed, Feb 02, 2022, 11:47 AM UTC

dheera wrote: post #100

doctor_eval wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem was not swimsuits. It was any clothing that was relatively thin. Swimsuits was just an example. In any case why would we be required to don tinfoil suits every time we go to the airport?

I mean, the material has a bug that wasn't discovered until recently, so we fix the bug and re-deploy the material. It's that simple. Just embed some carbon fibers or something in the swim suit, there are tons of ways to block UV. It's like if your car seatbelts have a bug you issue a product recall. Same thing.

It would seem easier and more efficient to fix the cultural taboos around nudity and over-sexualisation.

Breastfeeding mothers would be collateral winners of that change for example.

Re: mmWave radar, you won't see it coming

#128

Post by lmilcin » Wed, Feb 02, 2022, 11:49 AM UTC

transpute wrote: post #49

> Because mmWave radar doesn’t process visual light, what it sees is not personally identifiable. With machine learning improvements, identification and more are possible. From a 2021 paper on IEEE 802.11bf Wi-Fi Sensing, https://arxiv.org/pdf/2103.14918.pdf > Indeed, it has been shown that SENS-based classifiers can infer privacy-critical information such as keyboard typing, gesture recognition and activity tracking…

They can already identify a person from typing, gait or even how you move your mouse.

It is either very dishonest or extremely stupid for an expert to say mm waves can't be used to identify a person.

Re: mmWave radar, you won't see it coming

#129

Post by mateo1 » Wed, Feb 02, 2022, 12:12 PM UTC

hornej wrote: post #2

I've been following and building mmWave radar stuff for a little over a year now and I wanted to write an intro to help anyone get up to speed on how it works, why it's special, and what's been happening in the space.

Please write up how to make a simple passive detector so people can have a chance to know if they are being tracked.

This is going to be in every home in 10 years embedded in phones, TVs, smart speakers. All public venues. Trams, buses, subways. Everywhere. But most importantly homes. Every. Single. Person. 24/7. Breathing rate. Abnormal motions. Current location. Current activity.

Maybe, just maybe if we raise a some awareness we can curb the proliferation a bit.

Surely I can't be the only one who sees this as a nightmare.

Re: mmWave radar, you won't see it coming

#130

Post by giantg2 » Wed, Feb 02, 2022, 12:20 PM UTC

"One of mmWave's major advantages is its privacy-preserving nature. Because mmWave radar doesn’t process visual light, what it sees is not personally identifiable."

Bullshit!