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Improving MIT’s written commitment to freedom of expression

freespeech.mit.edu

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Re: Improving MIT’s written commitment to freedom of expression

#161

Post by ModernMech »

MatteoFrigo wrote: post #83
ModernMech wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, that's not about belief, that's about the reality that the student body is diverse, the school wants the student body to be diverse, and the classroom itself will accordingly be diverse. What specifically about the rubric is the most troubling to you? By the way, as someone who hires faculty and reads many such statements (I have to ask, have you read any DEI statements? Do you have examples which you find esp…

Would you mind stating which institution you work for, so I can recommend that my kids avoid it like the plague? I want teachers who can answer questions about Fourier transforms, not teachers who can "manage a diverse classroom". Really, "manage"?

The job of a teacher at a university is not to simply answer questions, but to manage (this is a term of art) a classroom for tens to hundreds of students at a time. One aspect of classroom management is mediating interpersonal conflicts, which happen often at scale and can hinge on issues relating to gender, race, religion, and other sensitive personal matters.

If you just want someone to answer questions on a subject matter, then a tutor is what you’re looking for. If you want to be a part of a student body, then you want someone who is not just good at answering questions, but can also effectively manage a classroom. Otherwise you’re in store for 14 weeks of confusion and chaos.

Re: Improving MIT’s written commitment to freedom of expression

#162

Post by 62951413 »

woolion wrote: post #30

We have reached a point where it has been a mainstream position to view the idea of defending free speech as disagreeable, or even deeply offensive. This statement is so weak that it is necessary to consider this climate to even understand how this can be published as a statement. After explicitly saying that illegal speech is not free speech, it lists 6 exceptions for things that are not free speech either, includin…

Did the West actually win the Cold War? The parallels with the Soviets are getting more real by the day. With those exceptions the commitments like that would be right at home in Putin's Russia and whatever is left of their universities.

Re: Improving MIT’s written commitment to freedom of expression

#163

Post by vanusa »

coffeeisyummy wrote: post #52
jeremyis wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uhm what was the 001 porn?

http://tech.mit.edu/V118/N8/aporn.8n.html Prof. Abelson wanted to hammer home the point porn was a problem on the internet back in 1998 and thought putting up a porn site for the first slide of a lecture would make his point. It was pretty shocking when it happened.

Was his flashing the room like that a free speech issue - or a thoughtless dickhead issue?

Independent of his legal "right" to conduct a class in that manner - it's basically kind of asinine to assume your students need to have their buttons expressly pushed in order to appreciate the basically obvious point he felt he needed to make. Or that if people object his resorting to such a stunt - that means they're "offended" by it.

Re: Improving MIT’s written commitment to freedom of expression

#164

Post by vanusa »

oversocialized wrote: post #123

This is the same institution that railroaded Aaron Swartz and accepted donations from Jeffrey Epstein on behalf of Bill Gates (pedophile arrested at Gates' house). Anyone looking to these self serving institutes for morality or upholding the Constitution is in for a rude awakening.

arrested at Gates' house

Which arrest are you referring to here?

Re: Improving MIT’s written commitment to freedom of expression

#165

Post by vanusa »

ModernMech wrote: post #134
oefrha wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a non-white male person who successfully navigated highly diverse top U.S. institutions as an international student without all the DEI bullshit a while back, I’d rather work with faculty and staff who don’t cater to my ethnicity, gender or whatever irrelevant traits, thanks.

> without all the DEI bullshit a while back, I’d rather work with faculty and staff who don’t cater to my ethnicity, gender or whatever irrelevant traits, Let me give you an example of where one example where it might feel like bullshit and be perceived to be irrelevant to you, but makes a big deal when it comes to individual students in my classroom. On the issue of pronouns, many people feel like it's a bullshit th…

I've been told as much. It's fine to have this position in the abstract, but it comes with costs in contexts that confront the reality that transgendered students exist.

So not in the abstract, but in the concrete, please: if someone is asked to state their pronouns (either in their email signatures, or at a meeting) -- are they allowed to opt-out? Or will there be "consequences" for doing so?

Re: Improving MIT’s written commitment to freedom of expression

#166

Post by vanusa »

ModernMech wrote: post #161
MatteoFrigo wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you mind stating which institution you work for, so I can recommend that my kids avoid it like the plague? I want teachers who can answer questions about Fourier transforms, not teachers who can "manage a diverse classroom". Really, "manage"?

The job of a teacher at a university is not to simply answer questions, but to manage (this is a term of art) a classroom for tens to hundreds of students at a time. One aspect of classroom management is mediating interpersonal conflicts, which happen often at scale and can hinge on issues relating to gender, race, religion, and other sensitive personal matters. If you just want someone to answer questions on a subje…

"Often happen at scale"? What on earth are you talking about?

The schools I went to very much "politically aware" -- and there was no shortage of drama and controversy in the student newspapers, online and all over campus, in fact. But in the classroom? I literally cannot think of a single instance of "interpersonal conflict" that would have required special "management" skills of any kind (beyond simple decency and common sense). Everyone got along, and it was all pretty mellow and chill, actually.

Re: Improving MIT’s written commitment to freedom of expression

#167

Post by [deleted] »

ModernMech wrote: post #151
zozbot234 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pretty much the only wrong answer here is to dismiss this as a bullshit nonissue that is irrelevant. Who's to say that there's any "right" or "wrong" answer to the issue? What if one were to fell back to basic norms of professional courtesy, that ask of us to treat others with tact and diplomacy so as to make them feel as comfortable as possible? One might then privately regard the whole matter as quite trifling, w…

> Who's to say that there's any "right" or "wrong" answer to the issue? Ultimately the faculty doing the search will decide what's an acceptable answer. > What if one were to fell back to basic norms of professional courtesy, that ask of us to treat others with tact and diplomacy so as to make them feel as comfortable as possible? You can absolutely go this route but I'll just remind you that it's a highly competitiv…

[deleted]

Re: Improving MIT’s written commitment to freedom of expression

#168

Post by vanusa »

ModernMech wrote: post #49
db48x wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can it not be true? Berkely posts a detailed rubric for grading DEI statements on their own website, for all to see: https://ofew.berkeley.edu/recruitment/contributions-diversit... It is clear that they won’t hire anyone who doesn’t express beliefs identical to their own.

> It is clear that they won’t hire anyone who doesn’t express beliefs identical to their own. That's not really what's going on here. First of all, you're not really understanding the faculty hiring process. The DEI aspect is just one of many considered, and the people who have most direct impact on the hiring process are the department and college dean, not the DEI office who produced this website. Secondly, to the…

This is not a purity test or an ideological test.

It most definitely is - in that it plainly assumes that candidates are racist / sexist / binarist / faithist / shapeist / ablist / everything-ist trolls; ignorant of social issues, and completely unable to treat others with elementary respect and decency -- until and unless they swear and affirm otherwise.

Re: Improving MIT’s written commitment to freedom of expression

#169

Post by ModernMech »

vanusa wrote: post #166
ModernMech wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The job of a teacher at a university is not to simply answer questions, but to manage (this is a term of art) a classroom for tens to hundreds of students at a time. One aspect of classroom management is mediating interpersonal conflicts, which happen often at scale and can hinge on issues relating to gender, race, religion, and other sensitive personal matters. If you just want someone to answer questions on a subje…

"Often happen at scale"? What on earth are you talking about? The schools I went to very much "politically aware" -- and there was no shortage of drama and controversy in the student newspapers, online and all over campus, in fact. But in the classroom? I literally cannot think of a single instance of "interpersonal conflict" that would have required special "management" skills of any kind (beyond simple decency and…

> "Often happen at scale"? What on earth are you talking about?

What I mean is that things that are rare for most people in everyday life become commonplace when you deal with batches of 100s of humans at a time.

For example, bipolar disorder occurs at a frequency of about 1% in the general population. Statistically in my classroom of 100 students, there's at least 1 who suffers from bipolar disorder, and therefore is in serious danger of for the first time undergoing an acute mental health crisis at some point during the semester. Therefore in my profession, issues related to mental health are not a rare or abstract occurrence, but are ever-present in the classroom semester after semester. Indeed, in almost all of my classes there will be a student who undergoes such a crisis, and so it's best to have a policy for dealing with these issues when they arise.

> I literally cannot think of a single instance of "interpersonal conflict" that would have required special "management" skills of any kind (beyond simple decency and common sense). Everyone got along, and it was all pretty mellow and chill, actually.

By "schools I went to", do you mean as a student? If so, then it's not surprising you wouldn't have been exposed to any of these things; very sensitive matters are brought to instructors in confidence and are handled discretely. In a well-managed classroom, the issues of other students should be transparent to you.

Some examples that I experienced recently:

- Student had racial slurs spray painted on their residence, wanted to discuss an extension of his project due to emotional distress.

- Female student overheard other male students making lewd and harassing comments about her, made her feel unwelcome in the classroom and was affecting her performance.

- Student was bullying other students in his group to the point that they came to me in tears about how he was treating them.

Having taken classes you may feel you understand what it takes to run a classroom, but I assure you there's an endless stream of these kinds of issues that occur in the background that you have no idea your instructors are dealing with.

Re: Improving MIT’s written commitment to freedom of expression

#170

Post by ModernMech »

vanusa wrote: post #168
ModernMech wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is clear that they won’t hire anyone who doesn’t express beliefs identical to their own. That's not really what's going on here. First of all, you're not really understanding the faculty hiring process. The DEI aspect is just one of many considered, and the people who have most direct impact on the hiring process are the department and college dean, not the DEI office who produced this website. Secondly, to the…

This is not a purity test or an ideological test. It most definitely is - in that it plainly assumes that candidates are racist / sexist / binarist / faithist / shapeist / ablist / everything-ist trolls; ignorant of social issues, and completely unable to treat others with elementary respect and decency -- until and unless they swear and affirm otherwise.

> it plainly assumes that candidates are...

Again, as I stated in some other responses here (not necessarily to you), the rubric notes several times that it's a suggestion and a template, and that the various criteria are non-exhaustive and not "ironclad". I've never heard of an ideological test that opens itself up to multiple interpretations.

> until and unless they swear and affirm otherwise.

Have you been in a position to read many (or any) DEI statements? Many barely show awareness that community service is a job requirement of being a professor. The worst of the worst are just a series of vague platitudes strung together e.g. "I strive to treat all students with respect and decency"... okay. How? To what effect? How do you refine this process?

Many candidates can't speak with any specificity about their views on social issues that impact the classroom, and struggle to have a cogent discussion relating to the salient issues that arise in a classroom. These candidates are often newly minted Ph.D.s or post-docs with no teaching experience, who want a full time tenure-track job but regard the teaching aspect as a nuisance.

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