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Israel rolls out laser defense system

reuters.com

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Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#111

Post by somewhereoutth »

endymi0n wrote: post #95
cobookman wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it? If the laser is able to focus on the rocket for multiple seconds. Then it'd just need to pack a fraction of that energy over a sustained duration. Which sounds reasonable.

Indeed, most people are very surprised that a stick of dynamite has just the energy equivalent of a Snickers bar. Spread the energy release over more than just a few microseconds and you have a very different profile.

Indeed, and going the other way, a snickers bar will get you surprising far across the English Channel in a rowing boat.

Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#112

Post by littlestymaar »

sharikous wrote: post #98
jimnotgym wrote: post #39

...and then what. What will they do when the rockets get faster, shinier, more erratic in flight...or any of the other things mentioned on this thread? I'm not going to pretend I have the solutions to the Arab Isreali conflict, but this is at best temporary. My best guess is the long term solution (if there is ever one attempted) will be more related to why people are motivated to launch rockets at their neighbours.

Almost all rocket attacks come from Gaza. The remaining ones are from Syria (actually Iranian Al Quds units stationed there) and Lebanon (the Palestinian Iranian-funded Hizbollah). The option is there to conquer and reoccupy Gaza. It would be terribly expensive in terms of human lives and the occupation will be very difficult to keep, but it would solve the problem of the rockets. Ditto for Lebanon and Syria. From th…

Or maybe stop starving and killing the children living in Gaza who will then make proud soldiers of the Hamas when they grow up, repeating the endless circle of violence?

And maybe stop encouraging Qatar to fund Hamas[1]? Yes, you read that right, and the source is a reputable Israeli newspaper. Hamas is a really convenient opponent for the Israeli government: they are evil, corrupt and basically harmless, but they are a great excuse for everything else (“we are at war, stop asking questions”).

[1]: https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/.premium-netanyahu-...

Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#113

Post by littlestymaar »

yuvalr1 wrote: post #88
guerrilla wrote: post #75

Lots of news about Israel today. Amnesty International just released a new report condemning Israel as an apartheid state.[1] 1. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-...

What a great way to start an off topic flame war... By the way, you could have shown Israel's response to this report as well: https://www.timesofisrael.com/lapid-attacks-delusional-amnes...

Do you also post Russian or North Korean responses when discussions involving these countries occur?

Israel is currently governed by a bunch of corrupt jerks motivated by a racist ideology, their officials response don't deserve more credit than Kim Jong-Un's.

It's not a problem with Israel or the Israeli people (most of whom just wish they could live their life in peace in the country they are born in, bearing no responsibility for the troubled times during and following the creation of Israel), but there is a big problem with those politicians benefiting the state of permanent war they are themselves creating to push a colonialist agenda.

Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#114

Post by adolph »

CapitalistCartr wrote: post #76
cobookman wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it? If the laser is able to focus on the rocket for multiple seconds. Then it'd just need to pack a fraction of that energy over a sustained duration. Which sounds reasonable.

The rocket is moving at perhaps mach 4+. The laser has to strike a singular spot. So holding focus for multuple seconds is an as-yet-unsolved problem. Of course, hitting an incoming missile at all is at the edge of current capability.

I was interested in validating or invalidating the mach 4 number. I guess it depends on the specific rocket, but the 122 mm M-21OF-M Rocket, sometimes referred to as Katyusha (although that was the name of a specific launcher, not the rocket [0]) is 660 m/s or about mach 2 [1].

0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyusha_rocket_launcher

1. https://kintex.bg/product-4-77

Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#115

Post by LorenPechtel »

jimnotgym wrote: post #39

...and then what. What will they do when the rockets get faster, shinier, more erratic in flight...or any of the other things mentioned on this thread? I'm not going to pretend I have the solutions to the Arab Isreali conflict, but this is at best temporary. My best guess is the long term solution (if there is ever one attempted) will be more related to why people are motivated to launch rockets at their neighbours.

Which shows you're missing the fundamental problem. There can be no peace with the Palestinians because it's not the Palestinians that Israel is actually at war with in the first place. Rather, they are pawns of their backers--if you somehow make peace with a pawn another simply steps up. Any peace agreement that actually worked would have to be with those backers--and they have never even been at the negotiating table.

Look at the conflicts of the world. Pawns don't get defeated. Most of the time the other side decides the situation isn't worth it and leaves, but in this case that's not an option because the other side has no possible retreat.

Note that a pawn can lose it's backing which in effects promotes it to being a king--and kings can be defeated.

Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#116

Post by deeviant »

opwieurposiu wrote: post #28
sandworm101 wrote: post #21

I will believe it when I see it. Focusing that much light on a small moving object, through layered and moving air, with an intensity to burn through metal would be an achievement. Burning through enough of that metal to degrade a falling rocket (as opposed to during boost phase of flight) is even harder. For all the talk about cost reduction, have a look at what realworld laser armor costs. Painting the nosecone of…

At the current power level, this laser is mainly useful against drones. There is a limit to how much laser power you can shoot through the air. When the threshold for breakdown is exceeded, a high density plasma is produced which is opaque to visible and infrared wavelengths and thus absorbs the laser radiation. The moon does not have this laser power limit, but moving Tel Aviv to the moon would quite expensive and y…

Way, way, way before a laser runs into any sort of hard stop regarding atmospheric effects, it crosses the line into military power and can vaporize anything it wants.

Also your statement seems incorrect to me, there is no hard stop for lasers in regards to atmospheric effects. Air is not some sort of invincible laser armor, there is definitely loss, but air does not magically ramp up it's ability to diffuse or diffract laser light without limit. If you shot a terawatt laser at earth from orbit, it would definitely hit earth and obliterate whatever it hits (it would also do horrible things to the air on it's way down that would be like a long linear nuclear bomb). I'm not suggesting one needs anything close to a terawatt laser to have an effective military power laser, either, just giving an example of why the above statement is incorrect.

Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#117

Post by LorenPechtel »

littlestymaar wrote: post #112
sharikous wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost all rocket attacks come from Gaza. The remaining ones are from Syria (actually Iranian Al Quds units stationed there) and Lebanon (the Palestinian Iranian-funded Hizbollah). The option is there to conquer and reoccupy Gaza. It would be terribly expensive in terms of human lives and the occupation will be very difficult to keep, but it would solve the problem of the rockets. Ditto for Lebanon and Syria. From th…

Or maybe stop starving and killing the children living in Gaza who will then make proud soldiers of the Hamas when they grow up, repeating the endless circle of violence? And maybe stop encouraging Qatar to fund Hamas[1]? Yes, you read that right, and the source is a reputable Israeli newspaper. Hamas is a really convenient opponent for the Israeli government: they are evil, corrupt and basically harmless, but they a…

Haaretz isn't a *reputable* Israeli newspaper.

The children of Gaza die because Hamas wants that to happen. And look at the demographics of those "children"--most are 16 and 17. And the only one starving children of Gaza is Hamas.

Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#118

Post by LorenPechtel »

nsxwolf wrote: post #90
guerrilla wrote: post #75

Lots of news about Israel today. Amnesty International just released a new report condemning Israel as an apartheid state.[1] 1. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-...

This harms the credibility of Amnesty International. There are many criticisms you can lay against Israel regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but "apartheid" doesn't pass the laugh test.

They've destroyed their own credibility long ago.

Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#119

Post by nickff »

jimnotgym wrote: post #100
nickff wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> " My best guess is the long term solution (if there is ever one attempted) will be more related to why people are motivated to launch rockets at their neighbours." The problem is that the Palestinians are a heterogeneous group. Even if the Palestinian government makes a 'peace' deal with the Israelis, other Palestinians opposed to the deal can 'break' it by shooting off a few cheap rockets. Further complicating the…

> other Palestinians opposed to the deal can 'break' it Only if Isreal reacts by declaring the peace deal with one group dead because another group fired rockets. It takes two to tango, as they say. If a gunman from Canada fired into the USA, the USA is unlikely to consider it a declaration of war and start nuking Canada!

>"Only if Isreal reacts by declaring the peace deal with one group dead because another group fired rockets. It takes two to tango, as they say."

This is problematic for a number of reasons. First, it could be that the Palestinian government was actually responsible for shooting off the rockets, but were scapegoating someone else for political reasons (the internal and external messaging are very different things, and it's hard to figure out the truth). Second, 'authority' is not unified in Palestine, and a government may be composed of groups which only agree on some policies, and have members have differing objectives and strategies.

Overall, if the Palestinians fail to stop rocket and mortar attacks, the only logical response for Israel is to blame their government. If Canadians were attacking the USA repeatedly and it seemed likely that the attacks were being organized by a political party which was a member of the governing coalition, I think the USA would have no option but to blame the government.

Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#120

Post by LorenPechtel »

golergka wrote: post #86
ocschwar wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically they've not done that because they know the IDF's response is proportional to the civilian casualties on the Israeli side. Better to wait for clear weather when iron dome is maximally effective.

This doesn't make any sense. The whole point is to get a bigger IDF response, bloodier palestinian casualties, louder western media coverage and larger help packages to pocket.

No. Hamas doesn't want too much Israeli response--Israel is too good at targeting the higher-up people. They want to provoke some shooting but they don't want Israel to be serious enough about it that Hamas' human shields aren't enough protection.
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