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Google Maps now requires WiFi scanning to use navigation

news.ycombinator.com

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Re: Google Maps now requires WiFi scanning to use navigation

#171

Post by titzer »

voakbasda wrote: post #83
dzhiurgis wrote: post #67

I don't like this being forced on you, but who the hell cares about wifi/bt SSID sniffing? What's so bad about collecting it? You are literally broadcasting it yourself and on most devices you can't even turn broadcasting off anymore.

My access points are inaccessible to the public. You would have to trespass deep into my property. No one has any business knowing anything about my network or devices here.

Unfortunately you are up against trillion dollar corporations who think the world is their little model, active misinformation from them, blatant bribery of elected officials leading to an engineered lack of government oversight, a completely clueless population, and an exponentially increasing technical capability of surveillance.

Re: Google Maps now requires WiFi scanning to use navigation

#172

Post by ggpp »

voakbasda wrote: post #83
dzhiurgis wrote: post #67

I don't like this being forced on you, but who the hell cares about wifi/bt SSID sniffing? What's so bad about collecting it? You are literally broadcasting it yourself and on most devices you can't even turn broadcasting off anymore.

My access points are inaccessible to the public. You would have to trespass deep into my property. No one has any business knowing anything about my network or devices here.

My access points are inaccessible to the public. You would have to trespass deep into my property.

Re: Google Maps now requires WiFi scanning to use navigation

#173

Post by delusional »

LoveGracePeace wrote: post #164
moritonal wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't believe I'm on this side of the debate, but at what point are we asking too much for free? Google provide Maps for free to an incredible accuracy and value. Unlike Apple, the user is welcome to use any other app, and yet chooses to use Google Maps. You could maybe argue that Google Maps is part of a package you bought the phone for, but realistically I think the solution is Google are just open about the use of…

"You could maybe argue that Google Maps is part of a package you bought the phone for" Microsoft lost the case to be able to directly control the user's browser experience: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor... .

They lost that case in 2001. I honestly doubt they'd lose it today.

Re: Google Maps now requires WiFi scanning to use navigation

#174

Post by belated_tech »

moritonal wrote: post #126
dessant wrote: post #86

Refusing service when the user does not consent to non-essential data sharing is illegal in the EU, and it also breaches Google Play's developer agreement. WiFi scanning is not essential to navigate with an app, and the least they could do to follow the law is to gracefully degrade the service if the user does not consent to share data about nearby devices, such as disabling traffic predictions. Of course Google's la…

Can't believe I'm on this side of the debate, but at what point are we asking too much for free? Google provide Maps for free to an incredible accuracy and value. Unlike Apple, the user is welcome to use any other app, and yet chooses to use Google Maps. You could maybe argue that Google Maps is part of a package you bought the phone for, but realistically I think the solution is Google are just open about the use of…

That a service is offered for free *does not* mean that the service can request unnecessary privilege for its offering.

> at what point are we asking too much for free?

At the point that they should *STOP*, which is also free.

Re: Google Maps now requires WiFi scanning to use navigation

#175

Post by steve_taylor »

moritonal wrote: post #126
dessant wrote: post #86

Refusing service when the user does not consent to non-essential data sharing is illegal in the EU, and it also breaches Google Play's developer agreement. WiFi scanning is not essential to navigate with an app, and the least they could do to follow the law is to gracefully degrade the service if the user does not consent to share data about nearby devices, such as disabling traffic predictions. Of course Google's la…

Can't believe I'm on this side of the debate, but at what point are we asking too much for free? Google provide Maps for free to an incredible accuracy and value. Unlike Apple, the user is welcome to use any other app, and yet chooses to use Google Maps. You could maybe argue that Google Maps is part of a package you bought the phone for, but realistically I think the solution is Google are just open about the use of…

It’s not free when you’re the product.

Re: Google Maps now requires WiFi scanning to use navigation

#176

Post by nybble41 »

mschuster91 wrote: post #77

> Of course, device location is on, but it's only for GPS, and google so badly wants that (apparently) vital, and sweet wifi + bluetooth + cell tracking data. I'd believe this has been made to reduce the number of "Maps takes soooo long to acquire my position on the map / can't find me when I'm in a building" complaints. A WiFi scan will be very quick (to the tune of 1-5s) to establish rough coordinates, a GPS TTFF c…

On the other hand, those "rough coordinates" you get from a WiFi scan may be hundreds of miles away from your actual location. WiFi networks move.

For example, I have a 4G hotspot with a proper antenna for areas with poor reception. While traveling to a campground the location remains accurate so long as I'm using Maps for navigation (with GPS). Shortly after I arrive and activate my hotspot, however, my phone starts reporting that I'm at the last place I stayed. And it generally keeps doing that for several days (until I'm about ready to leave) before their database finally updates. If I force a GPS fix—which takes longer due to the bad initial guess—it shows the right place for a while and then reverts once GPS is no longer active. What I want is for it to ignore all the mobile hotspots around me[0] and just use GPS and fixed sources such as cell towers. An out-of-date GPS fix would be better than its guess based on WiFi scanning, but Maps no longer supports navigation without what they laughably refer to as "Google Location Accuracy" enabled. There isn't even an option to include the more reliable sources such as cellular service and local sensors (inertial navigation) while excluding WiFi.

[0] Yes, I know I could rename the hotspot to use some ugly suffix or other ("_no_map", I think?) to avoid it being recorded in the database. That doesn't help with all the other mobile hotspots I don't control.

Re: Google Maps now requires WiFi scanning to use navigation

#177

Post by nickpp »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #148
nickpp wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hell let’s make selling anything about me illegal: my voice, my image, my ideas, my bodily fluids, especially my time and effort. Then I can finally live off the allowance our caring government will generously offer.

Here, how about a compromise. They can have my data but they have to pay minimum wage for it.

Minimum price for something just makes it illegal to sell if it happens to be worth less.

Re: Google Maps now requires WiFi scanning to use navigation

#178

Post by throwaway997665 »

This is your monthly reminder that Google absolutely does not care about your or anyone else's privacy. They only care about building a higher resolution view of the little ant farm of humanity that they think they own.

> Google has now drawn a line in the sand. Give us all your local SSIDs, local bluetooth connections, with likely even more detail, or they now refuse to allow you to use Maps to navigate.

Oh, that's not the half of it. If GLS's data harvesting practices (including its completely inadequate "anonymization" methods) were made public, you'd realize that your phone is uploading literally everything that could possibly be related to location tracking to Google as often as possible, including sensor traces accurate enough to locate you to less than a meter, what floor of a building you are on, etc.

Re: Google Maps now requires WiFi scanning to use navigation

#179

Post by Bancakes »

moritonal wrote: post #126
dessant wrote: post #86

Refusing service when the user does not consent to non-essential data sharing is illegal in the EU, and it also breaches Google Play's developer agreement. WiFi scanning is not essential to navigate with an app, and the least they could do to follow the law is to gracefully degrade the service if the user does not consent to share data about nearby devices, such as disabling traffic predictions. Of course Google's la…

Can't believe I'm on this side of the debate, but at what point are we asking too much for free? Google provide Maps for free to an incredible accuracy and value. Unlike Apple, the user is welcome to use any other app, and yet chooses to use Google Maps. You could maybe argue that Google Maps is part of a package you bought the phone for, but realistically I think the solution is Google are just open about the use of…

At the point where Google's failures to release working, marketable, and financially successful projects are causing them to leech off freeware.

Remember openstreetmaps is also free. I fully support freeware being paywalled as that would decimate FAMANG's userbase.

Re: Google Maps now requires WiFi scanning to use navigation

#180

Post by Dylan16807 »

nickpp wrote: post #177
Dylan16807 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here, how about a compromise. They can have my data but they have to pay minimum wage for it.

Minimum price for something just makes it illegal to sell if it happens to be worth less.

If your data is worth that little, which it is, then yeah let's make it illegal for companies to coerce people into giving it up with boilerplate contracts. The impact is too high and the benefit too low.

This is not a slippery slope toward outlawing anything you could possibly sell.

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