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Google Maps now requires WiFi scanning to use navigation

news.ycombinator.com

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Re: Google Maps now requires WiFi scanning to use navigation

#101

Post by asdff »

Schiendelman wrote: post #15
bkovacev wrote: post #3

What are some reliable alternatives for both iOS and Android? I'm unsure how are Apple Maps, but they were hideous a while back for Eastern Europe at least.

There are still places in the world where Apple Maps isn't great, but for 90% of people they're now as good for navigation, if not better (since they've built a data gathering operation). Last year I used Apple Maps for a 34,000 mile road trip. No significant issues.

The big pain point imo is that apple maps doesn't crawl for local business information as well as google. Many local businesses in LA do not show up on apple maps but have a presence on google maps. I wonder why apple maps engineers don't just crawl google maps and steal this data from them, I'm sure google would do the same.

Re: Google Maps now requires WiFi scanning to use navigation

#102

Post by lelandfe »

daviddisco wrote: post #76

What is the value of sniffing the local ssids? As far as I know it is just to get a better and faster lock on location (sometimes GPS signals are weak) and therefore give better navigation. Does anyone know of some other purpose?

My understanding is that they keep a record of SSID’s and their GPS-mapped location to know your exact location when you connect.

Google has done really dark stuff with WiFi networks before, like when it came out that their StreetView cars were wardriving and intercepting data: https://www.wired.com/2012/05/google-wifi-fcc-investigation/

> The design document showed that, in addition to collecting data that Google could use to map the location of wireless access points, Engineer Doe intended to collect, store, and analyze payload data from unencrypted Wi-Fi networks

At this point, I’m skeptical of any data I provide Google; they are masterminds at combining multiple points of data into something useful.

Re: Google Maps now requires WiFi scanning to use navigation

#103

Post by asdff »

can16358p wrote: post #52
nkrisc wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've used Apple Maps for a while now and haven't noticed any real difference in from when I used to use Google Maps. So for me: Google Maps and Apple Maps are utterly interchangeable.

When that's the case Apple Maps would be a better choice as it doesn't try to suck all your privacy into its ad ecosystem.

My issue is it lacks a lot of local businesses. No point in using it if I have to go to google to find the business address anyhow.

Re: Google Maps now requires WiFi scanning to use navigation

#104

Post by lakis »

daviddisco wrote: post #76

What is the value of sniffing the local ssids? As far as I know it is just to get a better and faster lock on location (sometimes GPS signals are weak) and therefore give better navigation. Does anyone know of some other purpose?

  This has a dual purpose. 
  From your perspective, that's true. It gives a better and faster lock on location.
  But at the same time, it associate the WIFI with a location with the accuracy of a GPS.
  So when you go into your laptop which has no GPS, the WiFi which you connect now has a real location association with it.
  Presto. Now Google can track your real location on your laptop and any other WiFi enabled device.

Re: Google Maps now requires WiFi scanning to use navigation

#105

Post by mcast »

DrBoring wrote: post #69
mcast wrote: post #19

Maybe someone should build a portable (FCC compliant?) device to put in your car that spoofs and rotates a bunch of 2.4/5Ghz SSIDs periodically to "trick" apps that mine wifi data with GPS location. Bonus points for bogus names like "Starbucks Wifi" or "McDonalds Free Wifi" in the middle of the highway. Even easier, just reverse engineer the API and send the SSIDs yourself.

> Bonus points for bogus names like "Starbucks Wifi" or "McDonalds Free Wifi" in the middle of the highway. Is the goal to make Google Maps publish a Starbucks/McDonalds in the middle of the highway? I can't imagine they would use the SSID as a source for building location.

No, the SSIDs are used to assist the GPS on where the user is located. Likewise, the data is used to triangulate a user in a specific business/location without needing access to GPS (some more nefarious uses: user is connected to "Joe's Psychiatry Wifi" every Wednesday, maybe we could group the user as a depressed adult for advertisers).

Re: Google Maps now requires WiFi scanning to use navigation

#106

Post by tqwhite »

bkovacev wrote: post #3

What are some reliable alternatives for both iOS and Android? I'm unsure how are Apple Maps, but they were hideous a while back for Eastern Europe at least.

I have always detested Google and am a longtime Apple user. I use Maps exclusively and like it perfectly well. Occasionally there is an update that makes it a bit dumber but, that always goes away.

It's very difficult imagine the marginal benefit of a different app that would overcome their strong brand commitment to privacy for me.

Re: Google Maps now requires WiFi scanning to use navigation

#107

Post by dTal »

They've always been coercive. You've never been able to use GPS passively without Play Services phoning your location home to Google, since the earliest days of Android. They would pop up a confirmation box asking you to agree to data collection, and if you declined, then GPS would remain off. It was a major influence in my decision to never, ever run a Googled Android on my phone. I just can't trust any company with that level of invasive surveillance. It's my line in the sand.

Re: Google Maps now requires WiFi scanning to use navigation

#108

Post by legitster »

dzhiurgis wrote: post #67

I don't like this being forced on you, but who the hell cares about wifi/bt SSID sniffing? What's so bad about collecting it? You are literally broadcasting it yourself and on most devices you can't even turn broadcasting off anymore.

Yeah, an SSID is meant to be a publicly available address. You can always hide them if you want.

Could you imagine the outrage if people found out Google was collecting and storing everyone's home address?

Re: Google Maps now requires WiFi scanning to use navigation

#109

Post by jdiez17 »

ForHackernews wrote: post #89
jdiez17 wrote: post #81

While I'm not sure if this change to Google Maps has been or will be widely rolled out, you may want to look into what GrapheneOS is working on with their Google Play compatibility layer [1]. It basically lets people use Google's services inside Android's standard app sandbox. That means they don't get access to privileged system APIs and can only access what the user chooses. It can also be used without a Google acc…

> to an open source implementation of those APIs Is this MicroG? https://microg.org/

No, microG is a partial reimplementation of some of the functionality in the Google Mobile Services (GMS) app. Unfortunately, this approach has significant drawbacks. In order to install microG, your version of Android OS needs support for spoofing the cryptographic signatures of apps. Some OSes like LineageOS and CalyxOS allow this. See [1] for some pointers about why this is considered harmful. There was also a recent fairly serious infoleak bug in microG [2] that in my opinion was caused by its broad scope.

The way it works in GrapheneOS is that the OS redirects Binder connections (an IPC mechanism in Android) to a trusted, bundled app (GmsCompat) which will only implement the Play services location API in the foreseeable future. The rest of the Google Play functionality is implemented by GMS itself.

[1] https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/android.html#microg...

[2] https://github.com/microg/GmsCore/issues/1567

Re: Google Maps now requires WiFi scanning to use navigation

#110

Post by asdff »

beeboop wrote: post #96
jjulius wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, most users are not aware of how much data they give up about themselves in order to get the whole functionality of the app.

For me at least, Google sends me monthly (quarterly?) updates on my location history and prompts me to review it. I assume people get this by default, and so anyone checking their google account email would see these emails and open them to see literally every single destination of theirs is permanently saved. They don't exactly hide it. Not defending Google, they suck. But in this one instance I don't think it's tha…

I've never gotten an email like that so its probably not a default setting.
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