There should be, by law, a "dumb mode" on all non-computing devices. Something that disables all smart features and reverts the device back to its basics. This "smart home" trend is a dangerous fad that trades security and privacy for very dubious gains.
My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi
281–290 of 597 posts
Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi
#282My dishwater won't drain because the hose that connects to the garbage disposal is clogged. Probably time for a new one (hose). I can fix it with a screwdriver. In the future, nothing will be fixed because of the incredible complexity of software and the lack of printed manuals. A whole generation of devices will disappear into a black hole. But for a brief period, there was a lot of shareholder value.
I did not find it difficult to find "dumb" devices on the european market - microwaves with rotary buttons and a washing machine without digital display or any visible computer-like interface. And a fridge that only does cool things.
I'm confused why tech people like lovecruft still pick the models who have whacky wifi integrations and stuff. For me it seems obvious they are a huge burden in the long term.
Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi
#283Earlier quoted context omitted.
Wouldn't a simple LED indicator have the same result? My "dumb" dishwasher has a small light it shines on the floor when it's on. Also, if I set it up and close it without actually starting it, it beeps to let me know.
The only improvement on that which I've seen is a dishwasher which projects the runtime left onto the floor (instead of just a off/on light).
Why can't it just display that on the screen?
Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi
#284Earlier quoted context omitted.
No software is perfect when shipped Why not? Or rather, why do we accept this as the norm? A dishwasher isn't that complex, it should be possible to prove the firmware error-free.
I think you radically underestimate how complex a modern, eco-friendly, low-water usage dishwasher is.
I don't think I do, care to elaborate?
From what I can see, there's only two types of processes running inside a dishwasher:
- control loops. These can (and must) be fully articulated during the design phase, can be accurately modeled using a Mealy FSM, and can be coded and verified with 100% coverage.
- input processing. These take input from various sensors inside the machine, clamp and/or process the measurements, and pass on the data to some control system. The processes can be designed to be completely stateless (or maybe with hysteresis), which means that the only verification they need is that they always output valid data, even when confronted with spurious inputs. Since it's a feed-forward process and the inputs are bounded, 100% coverage is again possible.
The only other system is the UI, and its only job is to provide valid configuration data to the master control process. As long as that part is extensively tested, the rest of the UI can crash and reboot at any time, and it won't affect the operation of the fully-tested control process.
Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi
#285I can understand the appeal of most smart devices, but since a dishwasher can’t yet load and unload itself, what is the point of an internet connected dishwasher? You have to have physically loaded it. Why not just push the start button then?
Notifications is the big reason: because cycle times are usually just estimates, you can't just set a timer for when it'll be done.
I don't need to be notified when the job is complete; I press "Start" before I go to bed, and unload in the morning. I don't mind if my clothes are a bit crumpled. But machines have had a "rinse hold" function since forever; if you can't tolerate slightly-crumpled clothes, do the rinse-and-spin in the morning.
Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi
#286I have a GE Monogram dishwasher and it takes 2+ minutes to start! Just sits on the splash screen. I wonder if it’s trying to connect to wifi or something. I miss my old one where I could just push the start button.
Similarly, mine does NOTHING when I push start. I have to stand there like an idiot for several seconds, straining to hear if something is going on. What a nuisance. It would have been trivial for them to flash a light or start the countdown (it has a timer display). But no; just sits there silently for a while.
I think, the startup delay is intentional. Otherwise they would tons of complaints by people, that notice 2 seconds after pressing the "GO"-button, that they forgot to put in another plate/cup/whatEv, opened the door, despite hearing the running water, and got doused.
Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi
#287Looks like a Miele. That menu can be exited (the image where it says "Software Update", the tiny bit on the right... that's a scroll bar of multiple options including the ability to exit this menu), but it does imply that the dishwasher is already connected to Wi-Fi and that it has determined that there is an update available. There are few times that a dishwasher is interacted with, if not when you go into the menu…
I have never once needed my dishwasher to be operated remotely. Load it and press start. The dishes get clean and it has no software just buttons. If the dishes get clean what further enhancements needed to be done?
I don't have a smart dishwasher, but I think an API to display the current salt level and a web UI that has some space to display and comfortable configure the various settings instead of 6 incomprehensible buttons would certainly be things I'd be interested in.
Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi
#288Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is exactly why Stallman invented free software: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-even-more-impor... .
Ehh... this is more like "people don't want software on their Dishwasher" rather than "people want free software on their dishwasher"
He foresaw way back in the 80-90s that corporations are going to put software on their dishwasher anyway irrespective of what people want. If his idealistic goals were to be realized by now, at least they would have full control over it.
Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi
#289my android phones did the same.
even if I have a data enabled sim card, I wasn't able to update anything without connecting to some Wi-Fi at least once :/
what's next? not able to use toilet paper until you download an app ?
ps: they're all android one ( meaning, no extra editing of the OS from the constructor )
Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi
#290Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The Wi-Fi is useful [...] Performs updates, etc. Ah yes, get wifi so your dishwasher can get security updates, which you need because your dishwasher is on wifi.
Updates improve wash efficiency, etc. Not just security updates. Maybe a new cleaning powder comes with a new algo. Maybe there's a better dosing for certain levels of water hardness. But the gist is that it updates the whole module. I'm fine with this, Miele are like Bosch in that they look after the hardware they sell for decades rather than considering it deprecated the day it leaves a shop floor.
There's no particular incentive for the changes made after the sale to improve functionality, particularly if the nominal owner of the machine can't detect them. If your wash efficiency is better this month than last month, wouldn't you like to know what change caused that? How about if it's worse? What if it accidentally breaks your dishwasher? Or the new, more efficient settings no longer get your dishes fully clean?
I don't think there's a terribly strong incentive for Miele to actively break their customers' deployed machines, since those customers might buy a Bosch next time, but there isn't a terribly strong incentive for them to improve them either.
There is a strong incentive for Miele to find ways to sell their customers' personal information, for example to insurance companies, collection agencies, or police forces, and this is functionality that can be added later in a firmware update.
Better to leave update functionality under the control of the people who are most directly affected by it: the users.