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Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

royalsociety.org

811–820 of 970 posts

Re: Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

#811
post #797

As much as I love being relatively unrestricted on the internet, is there actually any evidence that censorship decreases trust in institutions? China is notorious for censorship but from speaking to friends there it seems everyone is totally on board with vaccines and very few people doubt climate science. People know everything is censored but trust in science, experts etc is relatively high.

> As much as I love being relatively unrestricted on the internet, is there actually any evidence that censorship decreases trust in institutions? > China is notorious for censorship but from speaking to friends there it seems everyone is totally on board with vaccines and very few people doubt climate science. A consideration: could it be that acts of censorship decrease trust in a society that is already divided?

Yeah I can definitely see how this could be true in the current political climate.

More generally though, it seems to me that:

1. A minimal censorship information environment is essential to scientific progress

2. The average person lacks the epistemological foundations to handle a minimal censorship information environment

If these are both true, it seems like we should either:

1. Invest massively in improving people's epistemological models or

2. Apply a censorship gradient (i.e unrestricted for the purpose of academic exploration but have minimum standards for wide-reaching, publicly shared information)

Re: Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

#812

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a proposal to make things easier: why don't you and your friends give us a list of people allowed to talk about ivermectine, or mRNA, or Israel/Palestine, so we can more easily put them all on one channel that will give us the Truth and make it easier to protect us from all of the other articles, podcasts, etc ? I've seen some regimes do that and it works much better.

Here is the list of things you are not allowed to talk about: 1. Things that are false, whose dissemination regardless creates significant harm to society.

When you say false, are you using binary or ternary logic?

Re: Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

#813
post #801

As much as I love being relatively unrestricted on the internet, is there actually any evidence that censorship decreases trust in institutions? China is notorious for censorship but from speaking to friends there it seems everyone is totally on board with vaccines and very few people doubt climate science. People know everything is censored but trust in science, experts etc is relatively high.

Maybe the known presence of censorship actually trains & increases citizens' ability to question information and search for the truth? For example, many Chinese know about Tiananmen, and the burying of the high speed rail accident, even though those were heavily censored Would be an interesting causal relationship.

Holy shit. I never thought of this but that's such an interesting idea.

Re: Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

#814

Based. Nullius in verba [1]. The whitewashing of censorship is accelerating the erosion of trust in the institutions, and it's refreshing to see a long-standing institution take a bold stance. [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullius_in_verba

The problem is that we sometimes have to rely on other people. We can’t all be experts in everything. We can’t all reproduce or witness every experiment.

What we can do is delegate the process.

There’s a difference between saying “whatever X says is true, because X said it”, and “I trust what Y says because Y has explained the process and methods of how it was derived, and I don’t have reasonable doubt to assume Y lied”.

Re: Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

#815

The issue that plagues us is a lack of trust in long-standing societal authorities. We can't follow the entire scientific proof chain for every piece of information we encounter, because we don't have time. So we rely on authority to some extent, whether that be peer review, government, independent bodies, etc. We need to be able to trust that these bodies are telling us the truth and aren't seeking to mislead us. Be…

I believe if you take for yourself the right to neutralize or silence an opponent, he gets to do the same in kind. State authority is mostly based on show and relies on people complying, even in autocracies. So you should be very sure about it if you do silence people and about the costs. There was never a point in the recent pandemic or would you disagree?

It is also difficult to come up with an example where it was warranted to suppress information. Can you name one? Educated and intelligent people are often very distrustful, especially of authority.

Society is not a boot camp of grunts.

Re: Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

#816
post #799

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generalized masking reduces R. R<0.8 and the pandemic ends.

Yes, but that doesn't mean reducing R from 8 to 7 (example numbers) is all that helpful without a plan to get from 7 to 0.8.

It should be the other way around: non-essential-workers only leaving the home for groceries and other essentials reduces it from 7 to 1.5, keeping distance at the grocery store reduces it from 1.5 to 1.1, wearing masks at the grocery store reduces it from 1.1 t o 0.8. Something like that. Made-up numbers.

Re: Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

#817

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just that the CDC and other institutions of scientific authority 'said something wrong once.' I think most people understand and accept that science is not perfect. Instead, those institutions have shown that they are willing to publish nobel lies . Specifically, they are willing to bend the truth and publish false information if they believe it is in the best interest of society / greater good. Given an ent…

> It's not just that the CDC and other institutions of scientific authority 'said something wrong once.' I think most people understand and accept that science is not perfect. I disagree. I think a big part of the problem is people having unreasonable standards of accuracy or consistency. On COVID, the CDC was never going have everything perfectly figured out in the beginning, and then consistently repeat the same me…

I think the noble lie the parent is talking about has to do with the CDC's lie about masks early on in the pandemic.

Re: Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

#818

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The issue that plagues us is a lack of trust in long-standing societal authorities. Hmm. I wonder how we got there...[1] [1] https://i.imgflip.com/63b63m.jpg

Quoted post unavailable.

You are making some pretty uncharitable assumptions here, and frankly I find this entire post very distasteful. Who decides what is "pseudo-truth" instead of "actual truth"? I'll take a wild guess... you are the one who knows the "actual truth" unlike all the ignorant people who disagree with you...

Re: Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

#819

I see the root cause of all this debate as a failure in scientific communication. When it comes to complex scientific decisions with significant impacts on the public, nuanced and detailed justifications are required. Instead, we often get simple declarations written by PR departments at juvenile reading level. This spawns chaotic and poorly conducted debate in all walks of life. What is required is a robust and tran…

You would have had a higher vaccine compliance if the dialogue would never have been about mandates. Just give a health recommendation. You wouldn't have reached everyone, but the science also said that you do not need to.

In some countries we will see mandates without any perspective. For the third dosage? The fourth? The opposition is correct when it says you only get your freedom back if you boot out those responsible for this in the first place. No politician comes out and admits mistakes, not even in democracies.

People talk as if a political and a scientific opinion are equivalent. That is obviously not the case most of the time.

Re: Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

#820
The way I see it, this problem is unsolvable. The issue is that the human species simply isn't equipped to deal with the modern information age.

Biologically, we're still hunter gatherers, cognitively optimized to deal with tiny scale societies and its limited information diet.

Even in our area of culture (since only 10K years ago, start of agriculture) we dealt with almost no information at all. What we consume in information in a single day now is the information load of an entire year just centuries ago.

Even in my lifetime, early 80s, information was limited, and slow. When I grew up, we had 3 national TV channels, a few magazines, and a library of dated books.

The current age is not "business as usual", it's brand new. Information is unlimited. Information moves at breakneck speed. Information has broken free from institutions, all citizens are producing it. Information has no accountability, anybody can say anything.

We're not equipped for this. We don't "scale" in this way. That's why I don't see a true solution. But that doesn't excuse us from trying...

Academics should produce more idiot-proof takes that are proportional, connect with the real world and include counter points, rather than producing a simplistic paper for the sake of producing a paper to meet some perverted internal metric. The emphasis should be truth and the purpose of it, outcomes, not checklists.

Traditional media should stop turning themselves into a Twitter account or juicy Tumblr blog. Stop thinking in narratives and us versus them type of reporting as is so typical of US media.

Social networks should ban paid advertising for anything that has a societal impact. Further, social networks should stop rewarding the most extreme, dumb, controversial opinions to the mainstream as this normalizes outrage, division and minsinformation. The reasonables should win, not the crazy ones.

This last part is perhaps key. There will always be misinformation but the way it spreads is the real issue.

Say a controversial character has 100K followers. The character posts something new and it's now anyone's guess how many of their followers see it. My guess is that it's fairly low, perhaps 10K. If it would end here, it's fair game.

But that's now how this works. At all. There's a retweet button. This single button brings it under the eyes of countless additional audiences, and it spreads like wildfire. Because the take was controversial. As part of this effect, the character gets even more followers, and so on.

At the end of the day, you basically take a village idiot that would normally be completely isolated in their opinion, and hand them the microphone to address an audience of millions.

In fact, the only reason this person had 100K followers to begin with was because of this effect: richly rewarding controversy, bad takes, etc.

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