My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi • Hacker News Board

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#51

Post by michaelt » Mon, Jan 31, 2022, 2:13 PM UTC

buro9 wrote: post #5

Looks like a Miele. That menu can be exited (the image where it says "Software Update", the tiny bit on the right... that's a scroll bar of multiple options including the ability to exit this menu), but it does imply that the dishwasher is already connected to Wi-Fi and that it has determined that there is an update available. There are few times that a dishwasher is interacted with, if not when you go into the menu…

> The Wi-Fi is useful [...] Performs updates, etc.

Ah yes, get wifi so your dishwasher can get security updates, which you need because your dishwasher is on wifi.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#52

Post by da_chicken » Mon, Jan 31, 2022, 2:13 PM UTC

christophilus wrote: post #7

I can understand the appeal of most smart devices, but since a dishwasher can’t yet load and unload itself, what is the point of an internet connected dishwasher? You have to have physically loaded it. Why not just push the start button then?

> what is the point of an internet connected dishwasher?

The purpose of IOT is pretty clear, although it is also pretty broad. It's a win-win for the manufacturer, but probably a ticking time bomb for the customer.

The Good:

1. Reduce production costs by converting electronic control to digital control with COTS chips.

2. Reduce development costs by reducing the cost of correcting bug-free software. The system requires updates because it assumes that it is faulty.

3. Allow additional services, such as special run cycles, custom control of run cycles, etc.

4. Collecting anonymous telemetry data to determine actual use patterns, allowing for better focus on features people actually use or may want. Potentially allows for increases in efficiency (including end user resource costs like time, water, and electricity).

The Bad:

1. Aggregating anonymous telemetry data to sell to third parties for additional profit.

2. Facilitating planned obsolescence (software EOL = appliance EOL).

3. Denial of right-to-repair (John Deere).

4. Facilitating vendor lock-in.

5. Collecting non-anonymous telemetry data used for targeted advertising.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#53

Post by obmelvin » Mon, Jan 31, 2022, 2:15 PM UTC

throwaway2048 wrote: post #27

stragies wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that tweet is click-bait meant to generate outrage clicks and follows. Most of the submissions on the front-page have -at best- incomplete titles.

yes, clearly it is the user's fault that their dishwasher wont work without an update.

maybe I'm misunderstanding the GP - but they seem to say that they have the same dishwasher and that you can skip the update

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#54

Post by cube00 » Mon, Jan 31, 2022, 2:15 PM UTC

The marketing folks will solve this outrage by requiring all updates happen automatically at 3am without user intervention.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#55

Post by quacked » Mon, Jan 31, 2022, 2:16 PM UTC

krm01 wrote: post #40

Smart devices are overly complex. The entire point should have been to make devices work for you, but now when you buy a ‘smart’ washing machine, it requires you 30min of setup. Downloading apps, connecting it to wifi, providing GPS location etc. why? What’s the point. We need devices that make life simpler. Straight out of the box.

Are there any regulation barriers to selling "dumb" devices in the modern market? I've made the same point about pickup trucks--the 2002 Toyota Tacoma is a far preferable vehicle than the 2022 Toyota Tacoma for many truck owners, but when I've brought that up, people have pointed out that a number of laws make it impossible to sell a clone of the old version (must have backup cameras, must have X, must have Y, etc.)

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#56

Post by zrail » Mon, Jan 31, 2022, 2:16 PM UTC

The pro move is to set up a password-protected hidden guest Wi-Fi with client isolation and use it for every IoT device that needs internet but no local access. Bonus points if you put it on an isolated VLAN but that's homelab 201.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#57

Post by BeefWellington » Mon, Jan 31, 2022, 2:16 PM UTC

ginko wrote: post #42

lights0123 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Notifications is the big reason: because cycle times are usually just estimates, you can't just set a timer for when it'll be done.

The timer in my dumb Siemens washing machine works quite well. I can just set it to be done in hours. That way I can load it in the morning and have it just about done when I come home in the evening. Works quite well. Doesn't really matter if it takes 10 minutes longer or not.

People were automating timing of things before we had electricity. It's certainly not a requirement to be internet-connected to make that happen.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#58

Post by can16358p » Mon, Jan 31, 2022, 2:16 PM UTC

tyingq wrote: post #35

christophilus wrote: post #7

I can understand the appeal of most smart devices, but since a dishwasher can’t yet load and unload itself, what is the point of an internet connected dishwasher? You have to have physically loaded it. Why not just push the start button then?

Most of them are sort of silly, but it does have some options that make use of the "smartness". The manual is here: https://www.mieleusa.com/pmedia/ZGA/TX2070/10546880-000-01_1... Most of the smart stuff is in "settings" starting on page 64. Stuff like configuring it to run only during a low electric rate period (nights). Notifying you when filters need changing. Keeping track of detergent reservoir levels.

Honestly those are all welcome features for sure. The only problem is they gather too much data and call home. Not to mention this particular model/brand does it, but most do.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#59

Post by herbstein » Mon, Jan 31, 2022, 2:16 PM UTC

throwaway2048 wrote: post #27

stragies wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that tweet is click-bait meant to generate outrage clicks and follows. Most of the submissions on the front-page have -at best- incomplete titles.

yes, clearly it is the user's fault that their dishwasher wont work without an update.

As the GGP said, the menu can be exited without updating by scrolling down. The interface isn't intuitive, but it's not a hard block.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#60

Post by slig » Mon, Jan 31, 2022, 2:17 PM UTC

lights0123 wrote: post #12

christophilus wrote: post #7

I can understand the appeal of most smart devices, but since a dishwasher can’t yet load and unload itself, what is the point of an internet connected dishwasher? You have to have physically loaded it. Why not just push the start button then?

Notifications is the big reason: because cycle times are usually just estimates, you can't just set a timer for when it'll be done.

For a Linux user, you can already build such a system yourself quite trivially by getting a Piezoelectric Sensor, RPi, couple of resistors, and a clamping diode.