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Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

royalsociety.org

631–640 of 970 posts

Re: Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

#631
post #613

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you say you are no longer highly 'pro science' would you say that you would rather people take advice from scientists or from people who have a background of "Ultimate Fighting Championship color commentator, comedian, actor, and former television presenter". Because that's the level we're at at the moment. The current climate we're in means that consensus science from 50+ years of research and medical practice…

We're also living in the world where certain governments are mandating vaccines that pose 50% higher excess risk of myocarditis compared to an infection[1] for those aged under 40, according to a peer-reviewed, UK population-level study. Or shutdowns of discussion that some health authorities, like Sweden, have (IMO correctly) judged that there is no clear benefit to vaccinating kids under 12 against COVID [2]. The i…

Your first study does not show what you claim it does, or at least it is a gross simplification. These statistics are at the 10 per million scale i.e 0.001%, which is smaller than fatality rates for unvaccinated under-40s.

That is to say that there is a selection bias for people who did not die, and this is a significant oversight in your interpretation.

Re: Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

#632
I mean, removing / censoring dumb shit will just empower people, it's a kind of martyrdom, and the conspiracy thinkers will see it as Proof that there's a Cabal out there that is Suppressing the Truth. This already applies to these warning labels that are put on videos, facebook posts, spotify podcasts, etc - if you're skeptical about the establishment, you'll see those as proof that the cabal is meddling and trying to censor these opinions. It makes people more curious.

Re: Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

#634

Just throwing my 2c into the well, as someone who used to be highly "pro-science" but lost confidence in much of academia and the validity of scientific research in general after starting a PhD and seeing how the sausage is made. The biggest problem science is facing is not an external threat from a rabble of ignorant science deniers, but the complete degradation of quality within the scientific institutions themselv…

I mean you raise a valid concern, it's a form of corruption, "muddying the waters", or CV padding that should be combated.

But doesn't low quality science impact the universities and papers that host these things? Wouldn't e.g. Elsevier want to keep charging money for high quality content? Are people and organizations not losing their reputations, jobs, and income over this?

I don't think switching over to laypersons' podcasts is a valid alternative to bad science.

Re: Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

#636
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Has that maybe been true since the beginning of 'natural philosophy'? Unlikely. In its infancy, science -- aka "Natural Philosophy" as it was called at the time -- had to establish its credibility. It did so by delivering results.

And in the same way, a lot of science done and published in the last 25 years has shown real technological improvement in the world around us.

Is that not mostly engineering? Refinement of existing hard science?

Re: Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

#637
post #613

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're also living in the world where certain governments are mandating vaccines that pose 50% higher excess risk of myocarditis compared to an infection[1] for those aged under 40, according to a peer-reviewed, UK population-level study. Or shutdowns of discussion that some health authorities, like Sweden, have (IMO correctly) judged that there is no clear benefit to vaccinating kids under 12 against COVID [2]. The i…

> We're also living in the world where certain governments are mandating vaccines that pose 50% higher excess risk of myocarditis compared to an infection[1]. If everybody else takes a vaccine it is almost always far safer for you not to take it. Vaccines help society by stopping illnesses spreading, they just need enough people to collectively accept the personal risk for the good of everyone else - the same was tru…

This is also a simplification.

If the vaccines are creating sterilizing immunity, this might be true. For example the measles vaccine does that.

But for all current SARS-CoV-2 vaccines we have we don't get sterilizing immunity.

So it can still make sense to get vaccinated even if society at large is vaccinated.

Re: Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

#638

Just throwing my 2c into the well, as someone who used to be highly "pro-science" but lost confidence in much of academia and the validity of scientific research in general after starting a PhD and seeing how the sausage is made. The biggest problem science is facing is not an external threat from a rabble of ignorant science deniers, but the complete degradation of quality within the scientific institutions themselv…

When you say you are no longer highly 'pro science' would you say that you would rather people take advice from scientists or from people who have a background of "Ultimate Fighting Championship color commentator, comedian, actor, and former television presenter". Because that's the level we're at at the moment. The current climate we're in means that consensus science from 50+ years of research and medical practice…

Just this weekend I was reading that more than 60% of the research into cholesterol is funded by the egg industry. Research funded by industry overwhelmingly shows things in as positive light for industry whether it does or not.

This kind of example is common. It tells me its worth questioning research and looking deeper at what ever is released. When someone questions research to look at the merits of what they say.

Re: Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

#639

Just throwing my 2c into the well, as someone who used to be highly "pro-science" but lost confidence in much of academia and the validity of scientific research in general after starting a PhD and seeing how the sausage is made. The biggest problem science is facing is not an external threat from a rabble of ignorant science deniers, but the complete degradation of quality within the scientific institutions themselv…

There are also different variations of “science”.

You have hard science where the research is based on repeatable experiments in a lab where you can clearly isolate every other effect.

You also have softer sciences where experiments are difficult or impossible, and where people try to come up with the best approach. Climate science falls in that category (you can’t really experiment with Earth’s atmosphere, at best backtest your model to check it is compatible with your data).

The problem is that medicine falls within both of those categories. Some parts are fully replicable (like test 3 anti-allergy creams on the same skin at the same time), but many others don’t have the luxury of being able to experiment on humans. So you end up relying on correlation analysis with low samples and a million possible variables. Some bits like epidemiology are more akin to climate science.

The problem with these softer sciences isn’t that they aren’t science (the progress of medicine over the last century is prodigious), but that it’s hard to trust any study individually. So when someone points to a paper that shows a reduction of X by Y% if you do Z, my first reaction is skepticism. So I am struggling with the whole “follow the science” thing, and the idea that any objecting opinion must be crushed.

Re: Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

#640
post #584
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really was social media. Tell an algorithm to optimize for engagement and it will promote the content causing the most engagement: novelty, conspiracy theory, outrage, surprising "revelations" and all sorts of clickbait. If we removed Twitter, Facebook and Tik Tok and reverted YouTube to the pre-algorithmic (subscription based) era, we'd still have free speech on the internet but probably a lot less bullshit. Note…

It wasn't social media who decided that the government should strait up lie to people just because it was the best way (in their opinion) to get the best outcome. A big part of the anti-vaxx movement comes from the fact that the government have made it very clear they will lie and misrepresent data whenever it is politically advantageous for them. If you want a very recent exemple, just look at this interview from so…

Yeah, this is a classic example where social media spreads falsehoods, including mistakes.

Here the exec is stretching the definition of the term gene therapy to include things that don't alter genes "mRNA vaccines are an example for that cell and gene therapy". He basically makes a mistake, because the same platform is also used for gene therapy.

To use a software analogy, just because both mRNA vaccines and mRNA gene therapies are software, doesn't mean that mRNA vaccines perform system updates (instead they trip the suspicious behavior detection of the anti-virus and trigger a download for new virus definition files).

Additional subtle distortion happens later on social media when people take this mistake and "shrink" it in the opposite direction "actually mRNA vaccines are NOT vaccines because they're gene therapy".

Joe Rogan then takes that and stretches it further to imply this is why the vaccines don't last long

> This is really gene therapy. It's a different thing. It’s tricking your body into producing spike protein and making these antibodies for COVID. But it’s only good for a few months, they’re finding out now. The efficacy wanes after five or six months. I’m not saying that people shouldn’t take it. But I’m saying, you’re calling it a thing that it’s not. It’s not exactly what you’re saying it is, and you’re mandating people take it

Sinopharm makes a COVID vaccine from dead / inactivated virus. Its used widely in China as well as in the developing world. We've also seen the same reduced antibody neutralisation there, and it isn't necessarily because of the passage of time but to a large extent due to the evolution of the virus to be significantly different from the original.

So yeah, this is a perfect example of how social media spreads engaging novelty - whether its deliberate disinformation or simply mistakes - and continues to distort it further by continuously applying stretching and shrinking. The info blob continues to evolve to evade people's "immune defences" and cause them to re-share it (e.g. retweet).

This is not something new, traditional media have been doing it for decades ever since the rise of the yellow press, with varying levels of subtlety. The difference is that this here is an "organic", crowdsourced process that yields better, more convincing results, as it has to defeat the "immune systems" of many people to get a good reach via resharing. Only the highest quality misinformation makes it through.

The worst bit about this phenomenon is that corrections don't work well. People who haven't heard the rumor don't care about the correction (its not interesting) so they don't share it. People that have heard the rumor before don't like being wrong, so they don't share it either. So it doesn't matter how many scientists explain the difference, the explanation will never have anywhere close to the reach of the original (likely hundreds of millions of people)

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