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Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

royalsociety.org

601–610 of 970 posts

Re: Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

#602
post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 150 years ago we had phlogiston alongside Maxwell on electromagnetism. First, phlogiston theory was considered obsolete by the late 1700s, so you're off by a couple of decades. Second, that's not even remotely comparable. While phlogiston theory is incorrect, at the time it was first proposed it seemed as good a guess as any other, and remained a viable explanation for how combustion worked until experiments proved…

What's the basis to believe that this is worse now than other times in history, or on average? I strongly suspect there's a survival bias, where the past fraudulent and otherwise incorrect stuff is forgotten in favor of the great stuff. So it always feels like today is the worst time ever.

> What's the basis to believe that this is worse now than other times in history, or on average?

We produce more science now than ever before. If you have 10 scientists and 9 of them produce rubbish it won't take you long to read a paper from the one who doesn't.

If you have 10,000,000 and 9,000,000 produce rubbish you can spend a thousands lifetimes reading nothing but rubbish.

Re: Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

#603
post #552

Just throwing my 2c into the well, as someone who used to be highly "pro-science" but lost confidence in much of academia and the validity of scientific research in general after starting a PhD and seeing how the sausage is made. The biggest problem science is facing is not an external threat from a rabble of ignorant science deniers, but the complete degradation of quality within the scientific institutions themselv…

I don't know which field you studied, but I think that in physics it's not quite that bad. There might be some research published that's just wrong or fraudulent, but not that much. I think it's because in physics, outside maybe high energy particle physics, it's usually feasible to check other people's experiments. In theoretical physics it's certainly common to work through other people's results before extending t…

>I don't know which field you studied, but I think that in physics it's not quite that bad.

It's not that bad because it doesn't need to be. In theoretical physics I could have spend all day every day working on problems that have no physical evidence behind them at a top tier university. This is fraudulent because physics should have something to do with the real world. If you want maths for maths sake go into maths.

Re: Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

#604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bret and Eric Weinstein are ... to put it politely, utter narcissistic charlatans themselves.

I've got not dog in the fight, but I've listened to some podcasts by Bret Weinstein and Heather Heying, and compared to the absolute nonsense I see on TV today, it is a breath of fresh air. They're reading scientific articles, discussing implications in long form, and have been open and honest about their mistakes. I have not seen or heard of Eric Weinstein so I can't comment. I'm not sure what kind of bar you're usi…

> have been open and honest about their mistakes

They really haven't. They continued to double-down on ivermectin and other COVID era flim flam as it came to light more studies were dodgy or outright fraudulent. It's pretend science theatre from a former small university lecturer who managed a couple research papers in 20 years. For example, telling the audience with a straight face that it doesn't matter if the studies going into a metaanalysis are biased because the errors will cancel out.

Re: Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

#605

Just throwing my 2c into the well, as someone who used to be highly "pro-science" but lost confidence in much of academia and the validity of scientific research in general after starting a PhD and seeing how the sausage is made. The biggest problem science is facing is not an external threat from a rabble of ignorant science deniers, but the complete degradation of quality within the scientific institutions themselv…

When you say you are no longer highly 'pro science' would you say that you would rather people take advice from scientists or from people who have a background of "Ultimate Fighting Championship color commentator, comedian, actor, and former television presenter". Because that's the level we're at at the moment.

The current climate we're in means that consensus science from 50+ years of research and medical practice around the world is being questioned. Not some BS CS paper on a performance improvement in something that will be read and forgotten about, or that some new medication/fruit/treatment has some miracle cure that others can't duplicate.

We're in a world were people think that Bill Gates is inserting microchips into people and that Covid is a hoax by the world government and no one has died. Academia may be broken - but don't loose faith in science.

Re: Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

#606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I just throw out papers that don’t publish datasets and code There was an interesting research paper that claimed you could up your IQ with a computer game called dual n back and a lot of paper tried to replicate it, but my mind was blown when I realized none of them used the same code. None of them actually shared the code they used for their research and then they all claimed they were testing the same thing when…

Re running the authors code with their data will likely just repeat any methodological issues they had (either accidentally or fraudulently). In medical studies, one level is to reevaluate the data from the same set of patients to see if any bias or errors wasn't included, perhaps with a different or newer statistical idealogy. The best is for the study to be repeated with a fresh set of patient data to see if the un…

"Re running the authors code with their data will likely just repeat any methodological issues they had"

Yes, but that's useful too.

COVID-19 lockdowns largely kicked off in the west due to an epidemiological model from Imperial College London, written over a period of many years by the now notorious Professor Neil Ferguson.

When his team uploaded a pre-print of his paper and started sending it to government ministers, the code for his model wasn't available. They spent months fighting FOIA requests by claiming they were about to release it, but just had to tidy things up a bit first. When the code was finally uploaded to GitHub the world discovered the reason for delay: the model was a 15,000 lines of C trash fire of race conditions, floating point accumulation errors and memory corruptions in which basically every variable was in global scope and with a single letter name. It was a textbook case of how not to write software. In fact it was a textbook case of why variable names matter because one of the memory corruptions was caused by the author apparently losing track of what a variable named 'k' was meant to contain at that point in the code.

Not surprisingly, the model didn't work. Although it had command line flags to set the PRNG seeds these flags were useless: the model generated totally different output every time you ran it, even with fixed seeds. In fact hospital bed demand prediction changed from run to run by more than the size of the entire NHS Nightingale crash hospital building programme, purely due to bugs.

And as we now know the model was entirely wrong and the results were catastrophic. Lockdowns had no impact on mortality. There are many people who looked at the data and saw this but here's just the latest meta-analysis of published studies showing that to be true [1]. They destroyed the NHS which now has a cancer treatment backlog and pool of 'missing' patients so large that it cannot possibly catch up, meaning people will die waiting for treatment from the system they supported with their taxes for their entire lives. They destroyed the tax base, leaving the government with an unpayable debt that can be eliminated only via inflation meaning they will have soon destroyed people's savings too. It's just a catastrophe of incompetence and hubris.

The incorrectness of the model wasn't due only to programming bugs. The underlying biological assumptions were roughly GCSE level or a bit lower (GCSE is the exams you take at 15/16 in the UK), and it's quite evident that high school germ theory is woefully incomplete. In particular it has nothing to say on the topic of aerosol vs droplet transmission, which appears to be a critical error in the way these models are constructed.

Nonetheless, even if the assumptions were correct such a model should never have been used. Anyone outside the team who had access to the original code would have seen this problem immediately and could have sounded the alarm, but:

1. Nobody did have access.

2. ICL lied to the press by claiming the code had been published and peer reviewed years earlier (so where was it?)

3. Then when it was revealed the model wasn't reproducible, they teamed up with another academic at Cambridge and lied again by publishing a report+press release claiming it actually was reproducible and claims otherwise were misinformation.

4. And then the journal Nature and the BBC repeated these false claims of reproducibility.

All whilst anyone who looked at the GitHub issues list could see it filling up with determinism bugs. If you want citations for all these claims look here, at a summary report I wrote for a friendly MP [2].

So. It's good that the Royal Society is telling people not to engage in censorship, but their justifications for taking that stance reveal they're still living in lala land. By far the deadliest and most dangerous scientific misinformation throughout COVID has come from the formal institutions of science themselves. You could sum all the Substacks together and they would amount to 1% of the misinformation that has been published by government-backed "scientists", zero of whom have been banned from anything or received any penalty whatsoever. For as long as the scientific institutions are in denial about how utterly dishonest their culture has become we will continue to see a weird inversion in which random outsiders point out basic errors in their work and they respond by yelling "disinformation".

[1] https://sites.krieger.jhu.edu/iae/files/2022/01/A-Literature...

[2] https://plan99.net/~mike/epidemiology.pdf

Re: Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

#607

I remember when the government and scientific consensus informed me that margarine was good for me. For decades. Who knows what damage that has done to my internals.

I'm out of the loop here apparently, is margarine bad now? What's consequences does long term use have?

It's made of hydrogenated oil, which is bad for your vascular system.

Re: Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

#608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a person working in science (long past PhD), I disagree. There are tons of problem in science: grant system, pressure to publish etc. Also everyone in science is still a person with standard people problems: ego, desire to be right, wanting recognition etc. Also some fields had more issues because of poor statistical methods etc. But the self-correcting nature of science is still its biggest redeeming feature. And…

You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray’s case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the “wet streets cause rain” stories. Paper’s full of them. In any case, you r…

The Gell-Mann Amnesia effect.

Re: Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

#609

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's almost like our fav person Ayn Rand got that right [0]. Wat is pure science? It's little without a consciousness and there are a lot of perverse stimuli. For one, I found the requirement to publish (something "worthwhile", which is subjective) during my PhD so stupid. You can work hard and cleverly in science for 4 years yet only debunk stuff or not even find anything at all (but that by itself should be publish…

I wonder how many people actually believe Ayn Rand to be "their favorite person", after having met her. I believe one could count them on one hand.

Probably, I was being sarcastic, if you've been on HN for some time, you know that Ayn is not universally loved here. At times this is ironic because she matches quite well the opinions of people here wrt government involvement in the market, love, and now indeed state sponsored science.

Re: Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

#610
post #584
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really was social media. Tell an algorithm to optimize for engagement and it will promote the content causing the most engagement: novelty, conspiracy theory, outrage, surprising "revelations" and all sorts of clickbait. If we removed Twitter, Facebook and Tik Tok and reverted YouTube to the pre-algorithmic (subscription based) era, we'd still have free speech on the internet but probably a lot less bullshit. Note…

It wasn't social media who decided that the government should strait up lie to people just because it was the best way (in their opinion) to get the best outcome. A big part of the anti-vaxx movement comes from the fact that the government have made it very clear they will lie and misrepresent data whenever it is politically advantageous for them. If you want a very recent exemple, just look at this interview from so…

It's hard to defend this without arguing for allowing the government to lie to people without any defense.

However, even if it delivers to you true information about abuses and lies being told to you, you should still be aware that the system is doing this so that you will be outraged, rather than that you will be informed.

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