People don't work as much as they say • Hacker News Board

Re: People don't work as much as they say

#191

Post by ahelwer » Sat, Jan 29, 2022, 3:49 PM UTC

flyinglizard wrote: post #158

analog31 wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a manager, I quickly realized that trying to be a technical contributor was a subtle and insidious form of micromanagement. Also, I could give myself my pick of the coolest tasks, which was unfair.

Each hour put in as a manager is many times the return of you as an IC (for better or worse). As technical work is an endless pit of time, it’s very difficult to be a hands on manager that’s effective.

Very entertaining to read a thread of managers telling themselves they shouldn't do any work, and then simultaneously describing not doing any work as "many times the return of you as an IC" (presumably counting themselves not interfering with the people doing the actual work as equivalent to doing the sum of that work).

Re: People don't work as much as they say

#192

Post by distances » Sat, Jan 29, 2022, 3:52 PM UTC

shiftpgdn wrote: post #153

tamrix wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost anyone that brags to others about how many hours they work typically count checking their emails while watching TV as work.

That is working though.

But you shouldn't publicly claim 12 hour work days if you watch TV during those hours, that's ridiculous. That gives a completely wrong impression and may push some who don't know better to actually try and work 12 hours.

Re: People don't work as much as they say

#193

Post by Noumenon72 » Sat, Jan 29, 2022, 3:56 PM UTC

yobbo wrote: post #124

Yep. Anyone claiming to be working more than 40 hrs is implicitly revealing that their job doesn't require much thinking. It is possible in crunch time to work harder on difficult problems, but not for longer than a few weeks at a time followed by a few weeks of rest. Regardless how you account for the time.

I arrange my work so that it doesn't require much sitting and thinking. Instead I come up with a way that I can write code to visualize what's going on, iteratively test solutions, or read to select from approaches on the Web. I guess you're right, when it comes to something I would have to invent from scratch I panic about having to think for myself.

Re: People don't work as much as they say

#194

Post by giantg2 » Sat, Jan 29, 2022, 3:56 PM UTC

_n_b_ wrote: post #152

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #87

I’ve been reading some variant of this, for many years. One of the reasons that I hated being a manager, was because the job involved a lot of sitting around, waiting for stuff to happen. I couldn’t work on my own projects (because I was on paid work time), and it would have been irresponsible, in the extreme, to put myself into the critical path (because it was no guarantee that I would be able to reliably work). I…

As a manager, your main job is to make your ICs effective at doing their work. That means you need to be dealing with poor performers, rewarding with outstanding performers, trying to improve uneven performers, managing expectations from your management and shielding your team from the vicissitudes of your bosses as much as possible, fighting for things your team needs while shielding them from the demoralizing reali…

"trying to improve uneven performers"

How do you do that? Apparently I'm an inconsistent performer now.

Re: People don't work as much as they say

#195

Post by rdtwo » Sat, Jan 29, 2022, 3:57 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #145

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #87

I’ve been reading some variant of this, for many years. One of the reasons that I hated being a manager, was because the job involved a lot of sitting around, waiting for stuff to happen. I couldn’t work on my own projects (because I was on paid work time), and it would have been irresponsible, in the extreme, to put myself into the critical path (because it was no guarantee that I would be able to reliably work). I…

> One of the reasons that I hated being a manager, was because the job involved a lot of sitting around, waiting for stuff to happen. As a manager-of-managers, when I hear that a manager is doing "a lot of sitting around, waiting for stuff to happen", it's usually a sign that something has gone wrong. Don't get me wrong: I don't expect everyone to be productive 100% of the day, but if managers are reaching a point wh…

There is always more stuff to do but a smart person would quickly notice that only things that show up on metrics or are personally fulfilling are worth doing. The managers I’ve seen promoted chase metrics only and don’t sweat the other stuff. The good ones also take care of the people. The terrible ones try to do everything and anything that they think might be good for the company and ultimately piss everyone off and burn themselves out.

Re: People don't work as much as they say

#196

Post by Noumenon72 » Sat, Jan 29, 2022, 3:58 PM UTC

i_like_waiting wrote: post #81

It's quite an unpopular opinion, but it heavily depends on person. When I was starting my startup, it was usually solid work from 9/10 to 22:00/ 23, 7 days a week. The big difference is, that in those moments, work was well diversified, so when I felt exhausted by creative part, I went to repetitive tasks, then to investigate how legal part works, then to emails etc. It's mostly about having a right tactics. In curre…

It may only be unpopular on Hacker News. I saw an engineering account poll their followers on Twitter and this kind of opinion was a tiny minority. I would most likely be finding a way to think eight hours a day even if I weren't at work.

Re: People don't work as much as they say

#197

Post by flyinglizard » Sat, Jan 29, 2022, 4:01 PM UTC

ahelwer wrote: post #191

flyinglizard wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Each hour put in as a manager is many times the return of you as an IC (for better or worse). As technical work is an endless pit of time, it’s very difficult to be a hands on manager that’s effective.

Very entertaining to read a thread of managers telling themselves they shouldn't do any work, and then simultaneously describing not doing any work as "many times the return of you as an IC" (presumably counting themselves not interfering with the people doing the actual work as equivalent to doing the sum of that work).

Managers do work. They decide you what need to be done, when it’s due, they coordinate processes inside and outside the team, they (hopefully) review what gets implemented, make sure the team has the physical things it needs, build budgets and roadmaps, isolate the team from organizational bullshit, work on hiring and more.

It’s quite simple - you as a manager can only do the work of one IC but your are responsible for multiple ICs. If they sit idle, make the wrong decisions, are demoralized or leave the company, you hurt the org much more than help by technical contributions yourself.

I’d put the cutoff at about a team of 6. Below 6 you can do technical work yourself, above 6 you’re better off taking care of your team.

Re: People don't work as much as they say

#198

Post by ChrisMarshallNY » Sat, Jan 29, 2022, 4:03 PM UTC

ahelwer wrote: post #191

flyinglizard wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Each hour put in as a manager is many times the return of you as an IC (for better or worse). As technical work is an endless pit of time, it’s very difficult to be a hands on manager that’s effective.

Very entertaining to read a thread of managers telling themselves they shouldn't do any work, and then simultaneously describing not doing any work as "many times the return of you as an IC" (presumably counting themselves not interfering with the people doing the actual work as equivalent to doing the sum of that work).

I don’t especially care what people think of the job I did, or how I did it. I made enough to be where I am, today, and I like it.

It was what it was, and it is what it is.

I just wrote about my own experience, and my own feelings about that experience, as opposed to rendering judgment (look through my posting history, here, and you’ll find very little judgment of others. I am too old and tired to fight. I have better things to do with my time, other than TCP/IP posturing).

Re: People don't work as much as they say

#199

Post by caseysoftware » Sat, Jan 29, 2022, 4:04 PM UTC

ahelwer wrote: post #191

flyinglizard wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Each hour put in as a manager is many times the return of you as an IC (for better or worse). As technical work is an endless pit of time, it’s very difficult to be a hands on manager that’s effective.

Very entertaining to read a thread of managers telling themselves they shouldn't do any work, and then simultaneously describing not doing any work as "many times the return of you as an IC" (presumably counting themselves not interfering with the people doing the actual work as equivalent to doing the sum of that work).

If you think "hands on keyboard coding" is the primary/only form of work that matters, then you've missed out on a lot.

Of the best managers I've worked for, one of the most obviously important things they did was keep other teams off our backs. Constant interruptions, shifting priorities, "just a quick question", and the like do more to destroy a team and its progress than anything else. Their name doesn't get attached to lines of code or completed items but a lot more things get completed as a result.

Re: People don't work as much as they say

#200

Post by city41 » Sat, Jan 29, 2022, 4:04 PM UTC

_n_b_ wrote: post #152

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #87

I’ve been reading some variant of this, for many years. One of the reasons that I hated being a manager, was because the job involved a lot of sitting around, waiting for stuff to happen. I couldn’t work on my own projects (because I was on paid work time), and it would have been irresponsible, in the extreme, to put myself into the critical path (because it was no guarantee that I would be able to reliably work). I…

As a manager, your main job is to make your ICs effective at doing their work. That means you need to be dealing with poor performers, rewarding with outstanding performers, trying to improve uneven performers, managing expectations from your management and shielding your team from the vicissitudes of your bosses as much as possible, fighting for things your team needs while shielding them from the demoralizing reali…

I agree with all of this. But I can honestly say in my entire career I've only had about two good managers. One of the biggest issues in my experience is knowing who the bad/good performers are. Most managers have no idea. I've seen bad performers just let be, and I've seen great performers fired for seemingly no reason at all. Both kill team morale.