Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Citizen developers are rapidly becoming the vanguard of corporate digitisation

economist.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 203 posts

Re: Citizen developers are rapidly becoming the vanguard of corporate digitisation

#101

Post by onion2k »

streetcat1 wrote: post #28

The author miss the point that coding complexity is exponential, not linear. I.e. a lot of people can understand 10-20 lines of code, less can 100 LOC, less can 1000 LOC, maybe top 10% can understand 10K, 1% - 100K. So no code can work, just that the size limit of the program will be low (10-100 LOC) . However, most program start at low LOC, but ends up with high LOC, where the low code tools breaks. Hence, the low c…

So no code can work, just that the size limit of the program will be low (10-100 LOC)

This ignores the fact that each "line of code" in a "no code" app does significantly more than 1 line of code. The benefit of no code tools is that they solve the very problem you're claiming stops them being useful.

Re: Citizen developers are rapidly becoming the vanguard of corporate digitisation

#102

Post by garren »

orev wrote: post #64

One of the main differences I see on the road to learning to code has nothing to do with the tools; it’s the thought process. A major hurdle is trying to get the business people to coherently express what they want. They seem to have a general sense of how something should go, but can’t actually put it down on paper. Or when they do, it looks different than what they imagined (simply because the required logic doesn’…

That's just it; the article focuses exclusively on low code/no-code solutions. The author cites examples describing business people putting together functional systems without writing a lick of code (let alone understanding the math underlying such systems.) The whole point of the article is /not/ having to learn to code.

The idea is that these people are in the thick of a business problem, and given the right tools, they're likely to come up with a helpful solution. They don't need to express or communicate anything to anyone. They're able to provide a solution on their own.

I agree with this somewhat, having built and maintained more than a handful of the kind of apps that these low / no-code solutions target, i.e., line-of-business apps. These tools have a place. I've worked with trainers and consultants that, I firmly believe, would have thrived with these kinds of tools had they been available at the time.

Incidentally, I can't entirely agree that math is important because it encourages the appropriate thought process for constructing these systems. I've worked with more than enough technically inclined (if not remotely mathematically inclined) people who have managed to put together solid systems for themselves or their teams. I'm convinced that curious people excel in these cases, the ones that find a shortcut or an interesting path and just follow it.

Re: Citizen developers are rapidly becoming the vanguard of corporate digitisation

#103

Post by jacquesm »

garren wrote: post #102
orev wrote: post #64

One of the main differences I see on the road to learning to code has nothing to do with the tools; it’s the thought process. A major hurdle is trying to get the business people to coherently express what they want. They seem to have a general sense of how something should go, but can’t actually put it down on paper. Or when they do, it looks different than what they imagined (simply because the required logic doesn’…

That's just it; the article focuses exclusively on low code/no-code solutions. The author cites examples describing business people putting together functional systems without writing a lick of code (let alone understanding the math underlying such systems.) The whole point of the article is /not/ having to learn to code. The idea is that these people are in the thick of a business problem, and given the right tools,…

We already have this distinction: engineers vs bricklayers and plumbers. And it also works that way in software. Plenty of CRUD programmers would not be able to implement quicksort. But they sure are able to use it.

Re: Citizen developers are rapidly becoming the vanguard of corporate digitisation

#104

Post by reilly3000 »

onion2k wrote: post #101
streetcat1 wrote: post #28

The author miss the point that coding complexity is exponential, not linear. I.e. a lot of people can understand 10-20 lines of code, less can 100 LOC, less can 1000 LOC, maybe top 10% can understand 10K, 1% - 100K. So no code can work, just that the size limit of the program will be low (10-100 LOC) . However, most program start at low LOC, but ends up with high LOC, where the low code tools breaks. Hence, the low c…

So no code can work, just that the size limit of the program will be low (10-100 LOC) This ignores the fact that each "line of code" in a "no code" app does significantly more than 1 line of code. The benefit of no code tools is that they solve the very problem you're claiming stops them being useful.

Ok replace LOC with ‘Steps’. Its domain complexity, data types, relations, state, and the network that makes all of this hard. No-code doesn’t solve for big problems, but it sure does work for integration and the next million CRUD apps that fit highly specific niches.

Somebody who can write clever excel formulas can pick up a no code tool and be productive on day 1. That doesn’t mean they can go from there to writing an operating system - there is higher and lower abstractions that need to be considered, which comes from both experiences and the concepts they mature coding languages expose you to.

Re: Citizen developers are rapidly becoming the vanguard of corporate digitisation

#105

Post by jacquesm »

booleandilemma wrote: post #52

A lot of non-programmer office workers I've met aren't capable of writing software. Full stop. They're simply too incompetent. It's an uncomfortable truth. I'm talking about scrum masters who have trouble navigating Jira, business analysts who aren't able to have a written conversation, product owners who struggle to create Outlook calendar invites. Imagine asking these same people to write software rather than just…

> I'm talking about scrum masters who have trouble navigating Jira, business analysts who aren't able to have a written conversation, product owners who struggle to create Outlook calendar invites.

None of those have anything to do with writing software. You are mentioning two commercial packages with shitty user interfaces and you're talking about the skill of writing, which is hard for most people who need to write out a logical argument instead of winging it.

Apropos...

Re: Citizen developers are rapidly becoming the vanguard of corporate digitisation

#106

Post by jacquesm »

streetcat1 wrote: post #28

The author miss the point that coding complexity is exponential, not linear. I.e. a lot of people can understand 10-20 lines of code, less can 100 LOC, less can 1000 LOC, maybe top 10% can understand 10K, 1% - 100K. So no code can work, just that the size limit of the program will be low (10-100 LOC) . However, most program start at low LOC, but ends up with high LOC, where the low code tools breaks. Hence, the low c…

The trick to solving this is called scope. Because even that 1% won't be able to understand 100K lines all at once. They can also only understand the 20 lines in front of them (hopefully!). But they know how to use abstraction, and once that tool is in your box divide and conquer will get you to 100K LOC without losing your way.

Re: Citizen developers are rapidly becoming the vanguard of corporate digitisation

#107

Post by jacquesm »

shakna wrote: post #10

Well, this makes me feel old. It's no revolution, but a reversion. It was the norm, not that long ago, that anyone could do minor programming. The era of Lotus Notes and the like. You would still hire a programmer for the big stuff, but office workers would build little scripts, or look under the covers when something goes wrong.

And Hypercard / Filemaker. The things I've seen non IT people build with those still blow me away.

Re: Citizen developers are rapidly becoming the vanguard of corporate digitisation

#108

Post by gryn »

orev wrote: post #79
gryn wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with all what you said, except the part about 10 records vs 10 000, that I think need better clarification. depending on the amount of computation needed/task executed the number of record to update can make things very different. updating 1 million or 10 000 records that need very heavy computation and communication to other systems under some duration or latency constraints is very different from updating 1…

I was hesitant to include that example because I was concerned it would be nitpicked in this way. The vast majority of business records are not being sent through machine learning algorithms or being used to factor prime numbers, they’re simply lists of basic things like names, addresses, phone numbers, etc. In all of those cases, the difference between 10s or 1000s is trivial. These are the types of things people us…

yes I'm aware it's nitpicking, which is why I said I agree and that it just need more clarification.

but you don't need machine learning to hit these cases just a mismatch between what want to do and how/where it's stored.

examples:

- a noSQL db that cant directly do what you want and now you need to download lots of document to string them together before updating that field.

- a SQL data schema not matching your tasks where need lots and lots of joins and aggregations.

- data scattered across multiple web APIs that may have rate limits, now you may have to use a batch API if it exists and find a new route.

- data scraped from multiple places, going from 10 to 10 000s now will get you banned from most website, now you need to rewrite your code to circumvent that.

none of these examples involve data science, heavy processing algorithms, just moving data and selecting from it. and they seems like the kind of things business/people with no coding experience might want to do. (I want to keep track of prices from competitor, department X,Y, and Z have these info in their databases and gave us read-only access since they don't have time to do things for us, etc ...)

Re: Citizen developers are rapidly becoming the vanguard of corporate digitisation

#109

Post by jacquesm »

zozbot234 wrote: post #75
analog31 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Programming is too important to be left to programmers . -- apologies to Clemenceau I think it's possible to make productive use of programming without claiming to be developing software by which I mean, programs that are expected to be placed into long term or widespread use. That's what we did with programming in BASIC, 40 years ago. As a scientist, I use programming for things like modeling, data analysis, lab aut…

There was plenty of actual, production software written in some variety of BASIC. The language(s) definitely had its weakness, but it was not uniformly terrible. Especially once the "structured" varieties were introduced.

For many BASIC was the gateway drug to programming in the same way that JavaScript is today, it was included with almost every system.

Re: Citizen developers are rapidly becoming the vanguard of corporate digitisation

#110

Post by jacquesm »

Mandatum wrote: post #97

I really wish we put guard rails in the form of fines and damages to prevent people from exposing private or sensitive data. Handing people who have no idea about security or sensitivity of data the keys to the kingdom is like handing a toddler a loaded gun. Or a JavaScript, front-end UX developer the AWS root keys. Oh wait, we've already done that - and we regularly see them blow their parent company's heads off.

The bulk of the main dataleaks are from internet connected services which usually are built by programmers rather than end users.
Post reply on HN