The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out • Hacker News Board

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#321

Post by jsnell » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 8:23 PM UTC

stickfigure wrote: post #319

jsnell wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Restaurants can have the ID check done by the waiter when taking the order. There is very little overhead, certainly no need to employ an extra person to check papers at the door. I doubt any law enforcement is running random stings. They would probably wait for members of the public to report this first. I don't think checking IDs is gross, and obviously if you do, there is nothing I could say to change your mind. B…

You seem to have latched on to the least important part of what I've said. Yes, a centralized database combined with always-on internet access can suffice instead of holographic cards (in the same way that nowadays, police officers don't really need to look at your drivers license - they can just look you up from their car), but that's strictly worse from a privacy/dystopia perspective. And it does not work at all fo…

There is no need for a centralized database or always on internet access. How did my description suggest that either would be needed? As the verifiee, you need to print a piece of paper and have an ID. As the verifier, you need an offline app. No central authority is notified of the scan. None of this is rocket science, it is basic public key cryptography.

It does not take 5 minutes either. In practice it takes about 5 seconds to scan and validate the cert.

You have built an elaborate fantasy of how bad the system would be, rather than look at how the systems deployed for half a billion people actually work. Literally none of your stated fears actually bears out in practice. Suggesting you'd rather just get Covid is just depraved.

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#322

Post by stickfigure » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 11:32 PM UTC

jsnell wrote: post #321

stickfigure wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to have latched on to the least important part of what I've said. Yes, a centralized database combined with always-on internet access can suffice instead of holographic cards (in the same way that nowadays, police officers don't really need to look at your drivers license - they can just look you up from their car), but that's strictly worse from a privacy/dystopia perspective. And it does not work at all fo…

There is no need for a centralized database or always on internet access. How did my description suggest that either would be needed? As the verifiee, you need to print a piece of paper and have an ID. As the verifier, you need an offline app. No central authority is notified of the scan. None of this is rocket science, it is basic public key cryptography. It does not take 5 minutes either. In practice it takes about…

OK, I'll concede that PK cryptography can be used to eliminate the online requirement given that you don't need a revocation mechanism. You're still going to need active measures to ensure restaurant compliance. And signing these without a centralized database at the signing authority? Theoretically possible, practically impossible.

Tell me, where is it that these systems are working for half a billion people?

I'm guessing this is somewhere with a vastly different cultural landscape than the US. Depraved or not, I still value what little anonymity I have left.

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#323

Post by jsnell » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 11:58 PM UTC

stickfigure wrote: post #322

jsnell wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no need for a centralized database or always on internet access. How did my description suggest that either would be needed? As the verifiee, you need to print a piece of paper and have an ID. As the verifier, you need an offline app. No central authority is notified of the scan. None of this is rocket science, it is basic public key cryptography. It does not take 5 minutes either. In practice it takes about…

OK, I'll concede that PK cryptography can be used to eliminate the online requirement given that you don't need a revocation mechanism. You're still going to need active measures to ensure restaurant compliance. And signing these without a centralized database at the signing authority? Theoretically possible, practically impossible. Tell me, where is it that these systems are working for half a billion people? I'm gu…

This is how the EU (and some associated countries) have it set up. One obviously would like to centralize the signing just so for some basic auditing and to limit the number of public keys that get installed. But that just means a central signing service, it does not need to have persistent storage in said central location. In practice having the generated certs in a central DB is very useful for the users though, since it makes it trivial to install the certs on a new phone etc.

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#324

Post by emmo » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 4:10 AM UTC

throwawaygh wrote: post #253

ecdouvhr wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you still use checks? I don't think I've seen one since the 90's.

I still pay most of my bills with checks. I also collect rent and pay rent with checks. Basically my entire financial life except for perhaps eating out and buying useless things online is mediated in cash and checks. This is very normal in my social circle. Just because you choose to use e-banking doesn't mean that cash and checks are inaccessible, or even particularly inconvenient.

Checks (cheques) don't exist anymore in New Zealand.

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#325

Post by naveen99 » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 4:33 AM UTC

The most eligible client of a surveillance resistant system is a challenger to the throne, not a pleb. Since the most powerful can optionally exercise their power through persuasion of a multitude of plebs, there is a natural 50/50 split of power between the masses and the elite.

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#326

Post by raxxorrax » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 10:46 AM UTC

bentcorner wrote: post #189

throwawaygh wrote: post #164

Surveillance-resistant systems are not an answer to authoritarianism. Private companies do not have freedom of operation in authoritarian regimes. It's a special sort of odd neoliberal fantasy where capitalists or technologists can route around an authoritarian social movement that seizes the power of the state. Do you want to know what happens to people who think they can route around an authoritarian regime with cl…

Technology people make this mistake a lot. They see a problem like "the government might track all of our payments in the future" and create bitcoin. Or "the government might rootkit our phones" and creates an open source hardware phone. Or "the government might want to see who you are communicating with" and create an E2E encrypted chat application. None of these solutions do anything to solve the original problem,…

Partially correct. But we only have an ounce of privacy because states are not able to intrude all systems that we have. If it would be possible, surveillance would be even more extensive.

Sure, if there is enough incentive they might compromise your communication. At that point the wrench argument becomes very true.

So yes, technology did prevent the worst. It is true that it doesn't solve the problem of politcal ambitions of course, that was never the intend.

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#327

Post by raxxorrax » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 11:07 AM UTC

nicholasnorris wrote: post #254

core-utility wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The TV show Upload [1] has a group of people dubbed the "Ludds" (i.e. Luddites) that refuse to be party to the turn that the technological revolution has taken and stick to traditional ways of doing things. I strongly believe if that were to happen in our world today, much of Silicon Valley would be "Ludds", while a mass of non-tech people would happily welcome our new technological overlords. [1]: https://www.imdb.c…

It's my understanding that the Luddite movement was less about personal preferences or adherence to tradition, and more a labor movement that was opposed to losing their livelihoods to early forms of automation.

Well, they did not lose their jobs to automation for the most part. But tech enable rigorous surveillance so that taking a leak has to be a timed. Yeah, technology...

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#328

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jan 29, 2022, 1:29 AM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #102

avgcorrection wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moscow is in Europe my friend. I guess this is like the Brits who talk about “Europe” as if it was a separate place even though they can literally drive to France.

> Moscow is in Europe my friend Well, if you're going to get all pedantic, Moscow is actually in Asia.

[deleted]

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#329

Post by egberts1 » Sat, Jan 29, 2022, 11:15 AM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #130

egberts1 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s why Lockly.com has THREE methods of opening a smart lock. 1. key 2. iPhone 3. PIN pad.

It is a good solution, yes. But then they save the PIN on their phone instead of their memory because tiktok burned out their brain and they left the key home because "why do you need it since you have your iPhone!?11" and if this last point looks ridiculous remember this is exactly what happened with some Tesla owners going into areas of low cell service.

PIN number of iPhone are stored within the Apple hardware security alcove and are not readable.

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#330

Post by summm » Sun, Jan 30, 2022, 7:29 PM UTC

toss1 wrote: post #281

summm wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even worse: Why would I trust professional liars whose wrongdoings were uncovered by Snowden? "Do your own research". He cannot even name specific sources for his vague insinuations.

>>cannot even name nope, just didn't bother to go track it down for a comment. but here you go, this [0][1]should have enough details and links to start you off. You might also note that while the progressive Barack Obama had no problem pardoning Manning, he did no such thing for Snowdon. This was after the US House Intelligence Committee — not intelligence agency people, and both parties — UNANIMOUSLY voted to appro…

Thanks for making the effort.

All with the background that the US deep state including the NSA are proven to infringe on every thinkable human right, if it just serves their own purpose. This is a bed they themselves made, they have to lie in it. (Pun not intended)

[0] is quite unusable from this POV, as the author is an ex(?)-NSA person. It is an opinion hit-piece, starts with character assassination, just repeats the accusations. The recommendation to submit himself to US secret (!) court system is a mockery, if you have followed the Assange show-trials. Secret court systems that always rule in favor of the state? That, being secret, cannot undergo the scrutiny of the public? Even if he is innocent, at this point nobody who makes this suggestions can be taken seriously. He would be at the mercy of a vengeful deep state while disappearing in a supermax prison for at least some years. Versus, living what looks like a decent live in Moscow. If Snowden was innocent, this is just the same as I would expect from a lying NSA mouthpiece. The story about getting trapped in Russia would include some severely dumb mistakes by the US. Revoking his passport exactly at this time, trapping him in the capital of one of their worst enemies? Again, nothing what Snowden did after his escape really depends on his motives.

[1] Interesting spy story. But again from an ex(?)-NSA person. Also, or, in consequence, a bit one-sided and very focused on the cold-war communist scare.

About the "without Putins approval". What do you mean? Even if a dictator like Putin had no involvement before, presented with such an opportunity, I'd fully expect him to personally take advantage of such a situation, showing the "hypocrisy of the west" and sticking it to the US. That's exactly what he is doing now, dangling Snowden in front of the world. Snowden seeking protection from a weaker country would have been very stupid for him, as Assange can surely tell in hindsight.

Anyway, all of this could also be a ruse of the NSA, to publicize a lot of things hat had been public knowledge anyways all at once, containing the public uproar and legalizing their forbidded deeds. Most things like the secret spy gear room etc. in advance. Did anyone in the NSA going rogue get punished for overstepping their boundaries, breaking numerous laws? I don't think so. The only ones who are punished are the messengers, and then law breaking only stopped, because the laws have been changed.