Reclaiming the lost art of Linux server administration • Hacker News Board

Re: Reclaiming the lost art of Linux server administration

#201

Post by bcrosby95 » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 10:49 PM UTC

belter wrote: post #157

c2h5oh wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember how surprised people were when I demoed a $200/month bare metal server outperforming by a huge margin RDS MySQL instance that they were paying something upwards of 16k/month. IIRC we ended up using it as a disposable replica for some non-real time but heavy operations.

Not a fair comparison and you know it. Now add to the $200 month bare metal server, the yearly salary of the 3 admins you need to manage it. One as backup, one for day time, one for the night plus a weekend rotation. Add to the admin salaries social security, insurance and a margin of safety if one is unavailable due to sickness.

> a $200/month bare metal server

For 1 bare metal server? You do know these things run on electricity, right?

Re: Reclaiming the lost art of Linux server administration

#202

Post by DarylZero » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 10:49 PM UTC

cerved wrote: post #167

sseagull wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who have been woodworking for decades can own very expensive tools so that they can create very complicated things. People who are experts in cars can own very expensive cars and tools to tune them. People who have been working in music can have very expensive instruments and expensive headphones, microphones, sequencers, etc. We seem to be looking down on experienced "computer experts" and wanting to take the…

bruh nobody's looking down on people running they're own metal Server hardware is fun but it's not trivial to manage, buy or run. So when someone talks about how they've managed servers for 2 decades, own a house where they can install a 42 rack and how much better it is than a hosted solution. A lot of people rightly point out that this is hardly feasible for most people

People don't need a 42U rack to put a server in their closet though. You buy some surplus server on ebay and throw it on a shelf, no big deal.

Re: Reclaiming the lost art of Linux server administration

#203

Post by 0xbadcafebee » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 10:52 PM UTC

I still do not understand how anyone can become a software engineer and not stop to learn how an operating system or network works. I would have gone crazy if I'd never learned how network protocols work, or how web servers work, or virtual memory, or schedulers, security models, etc.

It's like manufacturing tires without knowing how an engine works. Don't you want to know how torque and horsepower affect acceleration and velocity? How else will you know what forces will be applied to the tires and thus how to design for said forces?

Re: Reclaiming the lost art of Linux server administration

#204

Post by glutamate » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 10:53 PM UTC

bcrosby95 wrote: post #201

belter wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a fair comparison and you know it. Now add to the $200 month bare metal server, the yearly salary of the 3 admins you need to manage it. One as backup, one for day time, one for the night plus a weekend rotation. Add to the admin salaries social security, insurance and a margin of safety if one is unavailable due to sickness.

> a $200/month bare metal server For 1 bare metal server? You do know these things run on electricity, right?

https://www.hetzner.com/dedicated-rootserver/matrix-ax

Re: Reclaiming the lost art of Linux server administration

#205

Post by 0xbadcafebee » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 10:55 PM UTC

warent wrote: post #34

When my SaaS app started scaling, I saw how badly cloud can be priced if you have even slightly unusual use-cases. It occurred to me that instead of spending ~$600/mo on GCP, I can invest in a $3000 PowerEdge server with much better hardware, run it out of my home office, and it pays for itself in less than a year. Running your own server is an investment that doesn't make sense for everyone. If you can get it, it is…

Personally I wouldn't want to become an auto mechanic just to drive my own car for my business, but you do you. (Makes sense if you have a fleet of vehicles, but for one car?)

Re: Reclaiming the lost art of Linux server administration

#206

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 10:55 PM UTC

viraptor wrote: post #139

c2h5oh wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember how surprised people were when I demoed a $200/month bare metal server outperforming by a huge margin RDS MySQL instance that they were paying something upwards of 16k/month. IIRC we ended up using it as a disposable replica for some non-real time but heavy operations.

Here's what the bare metal server didn't come with: API access for managing configuration, version updates/rollbacks, and ACL. A solution for unlimited scheduled snapshots without affecting performance. Close to immediate replacement of identical setup within seconds of failure. API-managed VPC/VPN built in. No underlying OS management. (Probably forgot a few...) I get that going bare metal is a good solution for som…

[deleted]

Re: Reclaiming the lost art of Linux server administration

#207

Post by jlcoff » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 10:56 PM UTC

DizzyDoo wrote: post #80

lrvick wrote: post #61

I have over 20 years of Linux/FreeBSD sysadmin experience ranging from universities to major silicon valley companies in both cloud and on-prem. When it comes to companies I mostly support cloud these days but when it comes to me and my family I accept every downside and host as almost all of our digital lives in a 42u rack in a gutted closet in our house with static IPs and business fiber. I know where our data live…

Woah, 42u, that's quite something! How many of those slots are you using? What kind of cooling do you have to have for that closet, and how is the volume for the rest of the house?

FWIW, I recently purchased maybe 21U worth of servers for less than $2000. Mostly IBM 2U servers (all dual 6-cores / 12-threads Xeon, most for spare parts), NAS (enough for triple >12TB redundancy), and LTO-4 loaders and drives to go in a rack I picked up for free locally which also came Cisco switches.

I'm gonna run my private cloud merging 3 different un-backed up physical computers, and migrate services off Google.

That's my second free 42U track, but the other was mostly used as shelf space. I've got a third rack rusting in my backyard which I bought for locally for $200, originally intended to run my former employer test infra, that I brought back home after they laid us off.

Re: Reclaiming the lost art of Linux server administration

#208

Post by rad_gruchalski » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 10:57 PM UTC

c2h5oh wrote: post #87

lrvick wrote: post #61

I have over 20 years of Linux/FreeBSD sysadmin experience ranging from universities to major silicon valley companies in both cloud and on-prem. When it comes to companies I mostly support cloud these days but when it comes to me and my family I accept every downside and host as almost all of our digital lives in a 42u rack in a gutted closet in our house with static IPs and business fiber. I know where our data live…

I remember how surprised people were when I demoed a $200/month bare metal server outperforming by a huge margin RDS MySQL instance that they were paying something upwards of 16k/month. IIRC we ended up using it as a disposable replica for some non-real time but heavy operations.

I’ve picked up a second hand Dell R720 last year. Best purchase in years. It cost me €1500 for 48 cores and 192GB RAM.

Re: Reclaiming the lost art of Linux server administration

#209

Post by bdekoz » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 11:02 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #171

lrvick wrote: post #61

I have over 20 years of Linux/FreeBSD sysadmin experience ranging from universities to major silicon valley companies in both cloud and on-prem. When it comes to companies I mostly support cloud these days but when it comes to me and my family I accept every downside and host as almost all of our digital lives in a 42u rack in a gutted closet in our house with static IPs and business fiber. I know where our data live…

I'm in a similar boat. I had a server in a closet but switched to a NAS a few years ago and haven't looked back. I do run into people who thinks NAS is old hat, that everything should be backed to a cloud somewhere. These are the people who think they are watching 4k because they select that option on youtube. I want to watch 4k without buffering, without artifacts. NAS lets me do that. And when I go away for a few d…

yes so this, and 4k but what bitrate, 1080p but at what bitrate

Re: Reclaiming the lost art of Linux server administration

#210

Post by Karrot_Kream » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 11:08 PM UTC

Yuioup wrote: post #86

lrvick wrote: post #61

I have over 20 years of Linux/FreeBSD sysadmin experience ranging from universities to major silicon valley companies in both cloud and on-prem. When it comes to companies I mostly support cloud these days but when it comes to me and my family I accept every downside and host as almost all of our digital lives in a 42u rack in a gutted closet in our house with static IPs and business fiber. I know where our data live…

Yes but you have talent and a lifetime of experience, plus space for a noisy 42u rack full of servers, but not everybody does...

GP is upfront about the tradeoffs.

> You pretty much get all the pros and cons of home ownership.

And that's the heart of the matter. Everyone here is arguing in circles based on their feelings about cloud vs their feelings on bare metal (and from what I can tell, pride in their own abilities), but at the end of the day it's a cost-benefit tradeoff. Everyone picks that tradeoff for themselves. As my immigrant parents are getting older, I'm thinking of getting them a business internet line and a SIP phone in their house so that if they need me in an emergency (health or otherwise) they can reach me quickly/reliably. It's something I'm weighing based on the cost of the service/infrastructure/maintenance against my parents' technical and social capabilities (which are limited as older immigrants from a non-Western country.)

It's all about tradeoffs. As computing professionals we have the knowledge and the skills to uniquely take advantage of these tradeoffs in our personal lives. Much like I know quite a few cabinetmakers who do actually make furniture for their house with their skills, their tools, and the shop they work in. That doesn't stop most people from buying furniture from Ikea or most businesses from using cloud hosting.