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Tell HN: We have a responsibility to speak out against blockchain technologies

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Re: Tell HN: We have a responsibility to speak out against blockchain technologies

#121

Post by mib32 »

sudosysgen wrote: post #67
ohazi wrote: post #32

Like many people back then, I also found the whole proof-of-work / blockchain concept to be interesting from a theoretical computer science / distributed systems perspective. But these days, I can't help but think that we've inadvertently created a paperclip maximizer without even bothering to create an AGI first. Humans are the AGI, and we're going to happily use more and more energy to play this stupid game for as…

Capital in general is a paperclip maximizer, not just Bitcoin. All investors are slaves to their capital that takes a mind of its own, a sort of real-world Egregore. Bitcoin is a flagrant example of this property of capital.

I also like to think of it as something analogous to drug addiction with the dopamine positive feedback loop.

Re: Tell HN: We have a responsibility to speak out against blockchain technologies

#122

Post by tim333 »

tchock23 wrote: post #11

Careful using the term ‘ponzi’ - they’ll show up and argue with you on semantics of what to call the scam while ignoring your other (valid) arguments.

Calling it a Ponzi shows a rather poor understanding of the area as if you say look at the Wikipedia article on them say, or similar sources it is apparent that Bitcoin isn't one. A passage from Wikipedia for example

>The scheme leads victims to believe that profits are coming from legitimate business activity (e.g., product sales or successful investments), and they remain unaware that other investors are the source of funds.

Bit like anti vaxxers saying the vaccine isn't a vaccine because it doesn't have 100% sterilizing immunity. It just goes to show the argurers are not very well informed on what vaccines and or Ponzis are by the usual dictionary definitions.

Re: Tell HN: We have a responsibility to speak out against blockchain technologies

#123

Post by elmomle »

dnautics wrote: post #100
sudosysgen wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capital in general is a paperclip maximizer, not just Bitcoin. All investors are slaves to their capital that takes a mind of its own, a sort of real-world Egregore. Bitcoin is a flagrant example of this property of capital.

Isn't this statement trivially true for any sort of social system, where you can stand in social capital for Capital.

Capital has tended to trump social capital in the long term, particularly since sufficient capital can shape the public discourse.

Re: Tell HN: We have a responsibility to speak out against blockchain technologies

#124

Post by zozbot234 »

prox wrote: post #111
logicalmonster wrote: post #68

> what a nightmarish step backwards it is for developers concerned with cost, speed, privacy, safety, and ease. 1) There's a lot of research and development into blockchain technology by very smart people. The systems are improving. What technology we'll have 5, 10, or 25 years from now is going to be much different than what exists now. It's a lack of imagination to think that because crypto is "slow" now (and not a…

I fear that a decentralized web that can’t be moderated also creates a 4chan like culture with extra steps. People, when anonymous, seem to race to the bottom in terms of ethics and accountability. Trust comes from when I know who the other person is, not just his/her/its attributes. A good debate comes from strengthening the things that bind us in an open forum. Sofar blockchain seems to be about making money (and I…

People can be anonymous but still accountable. Require users to post a cryptocurrency bond to post, and let others lay bets against the user's future score in some sort of crowd-sourced karma system. This lets other users gain if they successfully predict that the user's post will be disapproved of (get paid for reporting, e.g. obvious spam!) while conversely rewarding the user for good content that others are maliciously trying to bury or "cancel".

Re: Tell HN: We have a responsibility to speak out against blockchain technologies

#125

Post by arcticbull »

mib32 wrote: post #121
sudosysgen wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capital in general is a paperclip maximizer, not just Bitcoin. All investors are slaves to their capital that takes a mind of its own, a sort of real-world Egregore. Bitcoin is a flagrant example of this property of capital.

I also like to think of it as something analogous to drug addiction with the dopamine positive feedback loop.

Crypto is the crystal meth of finance. Capital completely divorced from labor.

Re: Tell HN: We have a responsibility to speak out against blockchain technologies

#126

Post by logicalmonster »

omegaworks wrote: post #102
logicalmonster wrote: post #68

> what a nightmarish step backwards it is for developers concerned with cost, speed, privacy, safety, and ease. 1) There's a lot of research and development into blockchain technology by very smart people. The systems are improving. What technology we'll have 5, 10, or 25 years from now is going to be much different than what exists now. It's a lack of imagination to think that because crypto is "slow" now (and not a…

>There's a lot of research and development into blockchain technology by very smart people. That is precisely why this is such a societally detrimental technology. The communities that are forming around it are self-reinforcing and suck up both monetary and intellectual capital. All of this hype about crypto's "potential" is demolished in Dan's excellent work. >It's a lack of imagination to think that because crypto…

> Proof of work combined with the deflationary nature of these currencies is literally the antithesis of efficiency.

1) First of all, are we discussing crypto as a currency or blockchains as a technology? Your criticisms seem all over the place here.

2) Maybe talking negatively about the dangers of deflationary currencies while we're in a period of economic inflation and peoples' purchasing power is being deliberately destroyed is not the best idea.

3) I'm not convinced that deflation in a currency is a bad thing. Mainstream economics schools hate deflation, but the Austrian school writes very favorably on the merits of deflation: https://mises.org/library/deflating-deflation-myth

4) Proof of work might or might not be around in the future: who knows? But that doesn't mean that blockchains are unworkable, just that one implementation might not stand the test of time.

> No system that relies on human inputs can prove to be perfectly transparent or eliminate corruption.

Look into what Oracles are and how they can guarantee the reliability of information and the concept of cryptoeconomic security. Who knows where this ends up going and if it's widely used or not, but there's a very high chance that all of the theoretical objections you would make here have been addressed.

Re: Tell HN: We have a responsibility to speak out against blockchain technologies

#127

Post by jonathan-adly »

dvt wrote: post #103
reincarnate0x14 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The leviathan is loose and it's never going back in a pen until the whole thing collapses under the weight of the fraud. Even legal restrictions on it will only help a little bit as enough moneyed interests are invested in keeping the hype train rolling. I've consulted for several companies trying to do blockchain based non-money things and can't emphasize to them enough that no one outside computer science and math…

Anecdotal, but I hosted a friend and her husband at my place a few months ago (Facebook Product Manager). She was telling me that her team of brilliant engineers are all either leaving to go to TikTok or crypto startups. Don't kid yourself, people follow the money.

No post body was provided.

Re: Tell HN: We have a responsibility to speak out against blockchain technologies

#128

Post by rschachte »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #97
rschachte wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The statistical likelihood of a 51% attack happening on the blockchain seems statistically way less likely than a hack targeting our existing financial system. I mean, it's pretty easy why blockchains are considered immutable, you can even code one from scratch in Python in less than 200 lines of code. To control 51% of all those hashing power, an entity would need to power computers that works as much as that, along…

To control 51% of all those hashing power, an entity would need to power computers that works as much as that, along with paying for the equipment and energy consumption and whatever costs needed for the operation. Current estimates of Bitcoin mining energy usage stands at 71 TeraWatthour, enough to power the whole country of Austria. Or they'd need to find a way to break SHA256. That's a risk you don't hear much abo…

yah, I have actually thought about this. Tbf, I'm not advocating strongly for or against blockchain. I'm just keeping an open mind in the same way when web 1.0 was being developed and researched.

I think it's fairly destructive to just discount new technology based on feeling. It really is a fun technology to learn and the more minds like we see on HN that research the topic, the more likelihood we will have in expanding the usefulness and security of blockchain use-cases.

Re: Tell HN: We have a responsibility to speak out against blockchain technologies

#129

Post by prox »

zozbot234 wrote: post #124
prox wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fear that a decentralized web that can’t be moderated also creates a 4chan like culture with extra steps. People, when anonymous, seem to race to the bottom in terms of ethics and accountability. Trust comes from when I know who the other person is, not just his/her/its attributes. A good debate comes from strengthening the things that bind us in an open forum. Sofar blockchain seems to be about making money (and I…

People can be anonymous but still accountable. Require users to post a cryptocurrency bond to post, and let others lay bets against the user's future score in some sort of crowd-sourced karma system. This lets other users gain if they successfully predict that the user's post will be disapproved of (get paid for reporting, e.g. obvious spam!) while conversely rewarding the user for good content that others are malici…

Is this an already implemented system, or is this a potential technology?

Re: Tell HN: We have a responsibility to speak out against blockchain technologies

#130

Post by kyle-rb »

unemphysbro wrote: post #19

why? i think it's the coolest thing ever. anyone can write a contract to automate taking out a loan, investing it, and pulling out the money, develop exotic securities, and bespoke arbitration. anyone can do it regardless of credentials or connections; just a month of learning. pretty darn cool to have unbridled access to a distributed computer.

Who is offering automated loans? "Regardless of credentials or connections" sounds like I don't need any credit history or anything, how do they trust me with this free money?

And I already have unbridled access to my own computer, which seems to have more compute power than the EVM.

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