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Tell HN: We have a responsibility to speak out against blockchain technologies

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Re: Tell HN: We have a responsibility to speak out against blockchain technologies

#111

> what a nightmarish step backwards it is for developers concerned with cost, speed, privacy, safety, and ease. 1) There's a lot of research and development into blockchain technology by very smart people. The systems are improving. What technology we'll have 5, 10, or 25 years from now is going to be much different than what exists now. It's a lack of imagination to think that because crypto is "slow" now (and not a…

I fear that a decentralized web that can’t be moderated also creates a 4chan like culture with extra steps. People, when anonymous, seem to race to the bottom in terms of ethics and accountability.

Trust comes from when I know who the other person is, not just his/her/its attributes. A good debate comes from strengthening the things that bind us in an open forum.

Sofar blockchain seems to be about making money (and I agree with OP on this point) and doing its version of the .com bubble.

Not saying that nothing of value might come from it, but at this point I don’t see anything of that kind.

Re: Tell HN: We have a responsibility to speak out against blockchain technologies

#113

why? i think it's the coolest thing ever. anyone can write a contract to automate taking out a loan, investing it, and pulling out the money, develop exotic securities, and bespoke arbitration. anyone can do it regardless of credentials or connections; just a month of learning. pretty darn cool to have unbridled access to a distributed computer.

Except humans haven't developed ways to write bug free code except in a very few limited circumstances none of which crypto uses.

Re: Tell HN: We have a responsibility to speak out against blockchain technologies

#114

why? i think it's the coolest thing ever. anyone can write a contract to automate taking out a loan, investing it, and pulling out the money, develop exotic securities, and bespoke arbitration. anyone can do it regardless of credentials or connections; just a month of learning. pretty darn cool to have unbridled access to a distributed computer.

The answer is pretty straight-forward. Every time we tried this before it collapsed into a giant ball of flame. Nothing crypto is producing is new. We've had stablecoins before in the form of wildcat banks. [1] They were backed at some point by barrels of nails with a few flakes of gold on top, and what little gold there was, was spirited around from bank to bank in front of the inspectors. That ended predictably. We…

> The answer is pretty straight-forward. Every time we tried this before it collapsed into a giant ball of flame.

This is availability heuristic. Many financial innovations work out well and power everything we do today without a second thought. Credit cards, internet banking, mobile banking, etc etc etc. Should we ban all financial innovations because a subset can cause collapse?

For stablecoins, the difference here is that all data is open. So for example with the latest news with MIM/abracadabra, all the loans/treasuries and collateralization ratios are viewable by everyone [1] and on chain as well. For Dai/frax/etc as well.

[1] https://dashboard.abracadabra.money/

For ICOs, this exists today as well in our regular regulated markets as well. Don't tell me you think AMC or GME is worth what they are worth.

> Crypto hasn't created anything new fundamentally, it's just re-hashing all the stuff we outlawed before because it was an objective breeding ground of fraud and crime and grift. The only thing new about the crypto economy is that the pitches are structured as "${previously_failed_idea} except on the Internet."

I'm not sure this is true.

Re: Tell HN: We have a responsibility to speak out against blockchain technologies

#115

I find it strange that people keep promoting that YouTube documentary. Ignoring tone issues, there is a lot of cherry picking and other logical fallacies. For example, he talks about how terrible Tether is and then completely ignores USDC. He also claims that none of the popular blockchains can scale, but Solana is frequently in the top 5 most popular cryptocurrencies. It seems to me that people that do an hour of re…

> Many are using the technology to facilitate scams and overpromising, but that doesn't make the technology fundamentally useless or bad. True enough, but since I have yet to see a use for the technology that isn't pretty much just a means to scam people, I'm totally fine calling the entire space a giant scam.

> True enough, but since I have yet to see a use for the technology that isn't pretty much just a means to scam people, I'm totally fine calling the entire space a giant scam.

Your comment reminds me of Guns... and how crazy the US people are about them haha.

Re: Tell HN: We have a responsibility to speak out against blockchain technologies

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have friends who have made millions from crypto. But every dollar they made is a dollar that someone else paid into the system, that that person is going to lose when the bubble bursts. Enabling that loss is not morally clean.

It's absolutely morally clean. The people losing money made their choice. Similarly I don't see anything wrong working for a betting company or even a company that produce dangerous or addictive drugs. I consider it morally wrong to work for the government or for criminal organisations which steal money under the threat of violence or kill people for reasons other than self defence.

Personally I find it immoral to support things that I believe cause more harm than good, regardless of whether the participants were compelled to do so by violence.

Re: Tell HN: We have a responsibility to speak out against blockchain technologies

#117
Your assessment of affairs is drenched in obvious bias. The downsides of these new technologies get plenty of airtime (your post included), but completely fail to acknowledge the genuine and useful innovations that are now possible (yes, there are many). Why was there no similar outcry from the technology community over the invention and proliferation of machine learning? It can be used for good or evil (there are plenty of cases of the latter that I'm sure the crowd can think of). It's extremely early days for groundbreaking technologies that have a lot of potential beyond the obvious scams we can all point to. We shouldn't banish a technology merely because it has the potential to harm (almost all technology does). What we should do is educate folks so they can decide whether they want to participate for themselves, rather than telling them how to think.

Re: Tell HN: We have a responsibility to speak out against blockchain technologies

#118
post #43

DLTs are not the problem. The problem is idiocracy. Most people don't think anymore. Some people even buy NFTs thinking ownership right come with those - not even asking legal questions... DLTs can indeed be incredibly useful, e.g. when multiple parties use the tech as a trusted pseudonymous data log, e.g. drug tracking from production to pharmacies. Or decentralized certificate wallets which allow you to actually ow…

> Most people don't think anymore.

Do you really believe that making mistakes is somehow on the rise, or that as a race we are getting less intelligent? This doesn't seem like a genuine argument other than a generic "people are dumb and getting dumber" statement.

Re: Tell HN: We have a responsibility to speak out against blockchain technologies

#119
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer is pretty straight-forward. Every time we tried this before it collapsed into a giant ball of flame. Nothing crypto is producing is new. We've had stablecoins before in the form of wildcat banks. [1] They were backed at some point by barrels of nails with a few flakes of gold on top, and what little gold there was, was spirited around from bank to bank in front of the inspectors. That ended predictably. We…

> The answer is pretty straight-forward. Every time we tried this before it collapsed into a giant ball of flame. This is availability heuristic. Many financial innovations work out well and power everything we do today without a second thought. Credit cards, internet banking, mobile banking, etc etc etc. Should we ban all financial innovations because a subset can cause collapse? For stablecoins, the difference here…

> This is availability heuristic. Many financial innovations work out well and power everything we do today without a second thought. Credit cards, internet banking, mobile banking, etc etc etc. Should we ban all financial innovations because a subset can cause collapse?

All of these tools are strictly regulated specifically to avoid that collapse. Because we learned from when they collapsed before not to let them run wild and do whatever they wanted because it's a bad time.

> For stablecoins, the difference here is that all data is open.

Only some fraction of the data is open. You have no access to exchange books. You can see where things are on chain, but the backing is completely opaque. Have you seen Tether's audits? I haven't. I know they wired all the cash to back one attestation over from Bitfinex the morning of the attestation and wired it back. Hat tip to the New York Attorney General. And they're far and away the largest.

Trustlessness can by definition only extend to what can be wholly represented on chain. Stablecoins cannot.

> For ICOs, this exists today as well in our regular regulated markets as well. Don't tell me you think AMC or GME is worth what they are worth.

They're not good investments because they're overpriced, but they're not zero-sum. They have customers and the intrinsic value of the shares increases (ideally) through dividends, buybacks and capital reinvestment over time. This means returns aren't exclusively generated by other shareholders but instead through a third party (customers).

Not every equity will win, and you can of course lose money buying them, but equities are positive sum.

Don't conflate a stock being "worth what they're selling for" with them being a zero-sum game like token offerings.

Re: Tell HN: We have a responsibility to speak out against blockchain technologies

#120
post #32

Like many people back then, I also found the whole proof-of-work / blockchain concept to be interesting from a theoretical computer science / distributed systems perspective. But these days, I can't help but think that we've inadvertently created a paperclip maximizer without even bothering to create an AGI first. Humans are the AGI, and we're going to happily use more and more energy to play this stupid game for as…

> we've inadvertently created a paperclip maximizer without even bothering to create an AGI first

that's a perfect way to describe it. thanks. sigh.

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