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In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

nytimes.com

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Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#351

Post by throwawaydroid »

pokepim wrote: post #297
rayiner wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true and that's unfortunate. At the same time, how do you balance national security versus avoiding situations like this one? One of my takeaways from studying the McCarthy era was that there really were a lot of spies and communist sympathizers in America at the time. It wasn't some figment of someone's imagination. Likewise, I think we have good reason to proceed under the assumption that China is trying to…

If you are really that concerned about “national security” you can just start employing American nationals only. If that is not enough and anyone looking a bit Asian can look suspicious to you then start employing only white christian americans. This what overt nationalism and fear of losing supremacy can lead to. But we know that this didn’t work before so that’s why America has become the place where talents from a…

Im pretty sure Chen is naturalized, otherwise i dont think he would have been allowed back in the country. TLDR, he applied for gov grant money, and failed to disclose foreign offiliations(in China). He refused to unlock his laptop to agents after taking it on a trip to China, and later when he was offered a plea deal so he could return to work, he refused to cooperate. Subsequently charges were dropped(and Chen returned to work) because we as Americans value the right to privacy over finding out what was on Mr. Chen's laptop. It's not racist, and it's ironic you paint it that way given the modern day holocaust happening in China right now.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#352

Post by platinumrad »

regnull wrote: post #263
VictorPath wrote: post #113

> The son of two mathematics teachers who were sent to teach on farms during China’s Cultural Revolution, Dr. Chen grew up without any hope of becoming a scientist. His parents, the descendants of landowners, had a “bad classification” from the Chinese government, and were viewed suspiciously. His father warned him he would probably spend his life as a farmer. But then Mao Zedong died. Chen moved to the US to experie…

Like being accused, exonerated, and then taking a victory lap over all the major publications to the sympathetic audience. Damn you America! Just like China, no? Also: "The FBI documents alleged that Chen received $19 million from China's Southern University of Science and Technology (SUSTech).[9] [23] On January 22, 2021, MIT's President released a second statement pointing out that these funds went to not Chen, but…

Yeah, what a victory lap, getting to rightfully speak out about his mistreatment. Tell me, would you trade a year of your life for the ability to take such a grand "victory lap"?

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#353

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 »

throwawayarnty wrote: post #10

The worst part of these accusations is that your reputation is tarnished whether you are guilty or not. This instilled a sense of fear in every person even if they are innocent because you can still be targeted and your career ruined. If this scientist was just stating out, rather than already established, he would likely have had to quit science. There should be some penalty for false accusations that can compensate…

It's a difficult subject to discuss. How do you prevent humans from harboring unconscious biases against people who are accused of a crime but found innocent? How do you prove that you are harmed? How much compensation would OJ Simpson be owed?

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#354

Post by feoren »

greesil wrote: post #35

These things have a way of working themselves out. "Father of Chinese Rocketry" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qian_Xuesen Except for the 5 years under house arrest part. Wow.

Survivorship bias, perhaps? That is, all the stories you hear about like this are the kind that turn into stories you hear about -- you don't hear about anyone whose life is just quietly ruined, so it seems like they all work out fine. And of course nothing "works itself out" -- it's people who work them out. It doesn't have to be you -- it's OK to just read the article and move on with your own life -- but whenever things "just work out" it's because someone stepped in and made a positive difference.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#355

Post by posterboy »

blackguardx wrote: post #313
rayiner wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true and that's unfortunate. At the same time, how do you balance national security versus avoiding situations like this one? One of my takeaways from studying the McCarthy era was that there really were a lot of spies and communist sympathizers in America at the time. It wasn't some figment of someone's imagination. Likewise, I think we have good reason to proceed under the assumption that China is trying to…

I’m not sure that is the right takeaway. The US espouses freedom. Unless someone is actually spying, their personal beliefs and political affiliations shouldn’t be subject to government scrutiny.

That statement is nigh ungrammatical, anyway illogical. "is actually spying" is a present tense. "shouldn't [unless]" is either a past tense, thus an illogical consequent to the present tense, or it is a hypothetical, irrealis or desiderative subjunctive in which case it merely implies that someone should not be "spying", in effect. This offers no objective criterion for the government's scrutiny, and the article does not point out what has gone wrong.

Clearly they conducted a background check and disagreed with the expert whether their findings were valid (fun fact, valid translates German valide or gültig, the latter somehow akin to guilty).

This may be well within their rights, eg. if they tried to impose harder interpretation of regulations. It can be criminal if they basicly ignored the expert for wanting to win, or it could be at least negligent if they have fundamentally misinterpreted the law. This is not strictly decidable and rests on the shoulders of the arbiters of truth.

(Another fun fact, gain say could be akin to German Gegenrede, as in against, or to French gagner as in win, German Gewinn. See also: Einrede, a legal terminus; sich etwas einreden "to ellude oneself"; -say in that sense must be akin to sake, forsaken, compare Widersacher "antagonist", akin to adv. wither, "contra")

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#356

Post by ska »

shantnutiwari wrote: post #84

This will just lead to a chilling effect, where scientists, esp those born outside, will be hesitant to apply for any government aid. I vaguely remember this case when it first came out. At the time, the impression I got was: Dr Chen was passing info to Chinese agents. And now the impression is: He had some affiliations with Chinese groups that were fully legal, and he was not required to disclose. Which begs the que…

> Why was he arrested in the first place?

Sounds like a mixture of incompetence and poorly constructed incentives.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#357

Post by pphysch »

KerrAvon wrote: post #300
pphysch wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Objectively speaking (I think both 'sides' are equally confused): * People losing their careers over reactionary views/speech * Historical monuments/names being destroyed (mostly relating to CSA/overt racism) * Record levels of distrust. Anyone could be a Trumpist or "far left radical", so keep your distance. * Large organizations are installing ideological offices to keep reactionary behavior in check, some going as…

How you can be "objective," live through the past twenty years, and wind up thinking "both sides" are equally problematic/at fault for the current situation? Maybe a little history will help? America has been prone to succumb to demagoguery for a long time. Here's a novel from 1935 that you should be familiar with: https://www.amazon.com/Cant-Happen-Here-Sinclair-Lewis/dp/19... The reason it's finally happening now i…

USA was created in the wake of perhaps the largest ethnic cleansing in human history (virtual entirety of the North American continent) and has been at war for >90% of its history. It has always been deeply racist (whether overt like KKK lynchings or subtle like census reporting and tokenism).

Whatever these rightoids are allegedly plotting, you can't say they are "remaking" America into something radically new.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#358

Post by varjag »

kragen wrote: post #350
varjag wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That quote was literally from Cultural Revolution WP summary, so you may well heed your own advice and read it for once. My point was that any parallels between that and events in the USA are nothing but disingenuous exaggeration. Consider just how vague your allusions are: without knowing your political views I would be at loss figuring if you allude to the rise of proto-fascist American right or lament the assault…

Quoted post unavailable.

No post body was provided.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#359

Post by DenisM »

kragen wrote: post #204
varjag wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate how exactly? Was your former colleague sent to kill sparrows in rice fields too?

You're confusing the Cultural Revolution with the Great Leap Forward. If you read a little bit about the Cultural Revolution the connection will be obvious.

You have broken a number of guidelines in your various comments, for example:

Please don't comment on whether someone read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that." (this comment above)

Be kind. Don't be snarky. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30116919

Don't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them instead. If you flag, please don't also comment that you did. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30118970

Reference: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#360

Post by nobody9999 »

dnautics wrote: post #349
nobody9999 wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>has the authority to restrict how you use the fruits of those funds; if you cannot abide by them then perhaps consider stop taking federal funds? Not sure if you're familiar with this bit[0]: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; *or abridging the freedom of speech*, Are you arguing that taking public money obviates the above? I'd say that since…

going to quote my sibling child comment here: If you are, say a high ranking general at the pentagon -- which is a position directly paid by the government, then can you claim "first amendment" if you pass military secrets on to an adversarial government? Of course not. I suggest you think about why a general gets treated differently than a private citizen. Suppose you are a private citizen and manage to snap a pictu…

>I suggest you think about why a general gets treated differently than a private citizen.

I didn't realize that being an academic at a private research institution was equivalent to being a member of the armed forces.

Thanks for clarifying that for me. I should have realized that they were exactly the same thing.

Please.

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