Earlier quoted context omitted.
Quoted post unavailable.
No, we save that for the Hispanics.
irrational provocation, please refrain
In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist
271–280 of 484 posts
Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist
#272In security, you're always guilty until proven innocent.
Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist
#273To at least attempt to think about this critically, and to try to ignore the amount of frankly shocking things people are saying here, can I ask, maybe from people in the field, is this level of industrial/scientific espionage even a critical factor in our current world? We live in a global world where scientists in various institutions are constantly trading papers, findings. Why are we so worried that the U.S. migh…
> Are you all really here in 2022, being like "we can't risk a Chinese national from even seeing our American semiconductor research, they will steal it and use it against us?" There are a number of issues at play here and I can speak to several of them, having either helped the federal government directly or having knowledge of industrial espionage in my industry at the time (semiconductors). Some technology is expo…
> Any researcher's talk, paper, research, materials, etc. must undergo an export controls review first before it leaves the United States or is shown to a foreign national.
Are you saying that if a professor in the US doing semiconductor research gave a talk in their university, that talk would have to undergo an "export controls review" before being given (since students could attend the talk, and many students are foreign nationals)? I'm having a very hard time picturing that. Do you have first hand experience, or is this just how you imagine this works?
Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist
#274The worst part of these accusations is that your reputation is tarnished whether you are guilty or not. This instilled a sense of fear in every person even if they are innocent because you can still be targeted and your career ruined. If this scientist was just stating out, rather than already established, he would likely have had to quit science. There should be some penalty for false accusations that can compensate…
He can certainly sue the US government for accusing him publicly without enough evidence to prosecute, and the resulting loss of compensation. Now, it's not exactly affordable for him to do so. But that's a separate problem we should solve.
He can clearly document harms, too. A top-flight research group takes a lifetime, reputation, and resources to assemble.
Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist
#275Earlier quoted context omitted.
ASML tech leveraged investments made over the decades by US national labs and consortiums like EUV-LLC as well as by companies like Cymer (DUV) which they acquired. IIRC, Part of the reason the US can forbid ASML selling EUV machines to China is they are covered by some patents held by US DOE/NIST. For sure, ASML did the “final mile” in perfecting EUV and making it work in a production environment vs the prototypes i…
The parent does have a point, a common argument for pharmaceuticals is that governments and universities fund, or participate in funding, everything except the ‘last mile’ of drug development, i.e. human clinical trials. So a naive reader may assume they were primarily responsible but in fact it is the ‘last mile’ that consumes the vast majority of resources. Although the breakdown may not be clear in the case of EUV…
Okay, but that's just ignoring that ASML's largest design center is in NY just a few tens of miles from NYC and White Plains. Why is it there? Global Foundries (former IBM and AMD) is nearby and that was where the research was happening. Their second largest design center is in Norway, so not even in the EU. But sure, they're a Dutch company that does most of its design work outside of the Netherlands.
In terms of research, well the USA is still leading in total number of dollars, researchers, labs, and light sources dedicated to semiconductor research. Heck, we have three of the world's most advanced accelerators (Fermi Lab, Argonne National Labs, and SLAC) that are critical to semiconductor device research and were where most of the EUV breakthroughs were made.
In terms of total effort for EUV, yeah most probably wasn't in the USA. But if I had to hazard a guess, probably 50-60% of the research and development of EUV was done in the USA, Canada, Taiwan, Japan, and South Korea. So essentially countries firmly within our sphere of influence with the rest occurring in Europe (not the EU, the continent), the People's Republic of China, India, etc. And as we're moving forward, TSMC's stated reason for putting their most advanced fabs in the USA going forward is because they want faster and easier access to where the research is occurring at the bleeding edge of the research without the problem of the time gap that delays and impedes communication due to sleep schedules.
Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist
#276To at least attempt to think about this critically, and to try to ignore the amount of frankly shocking things people are saying here, can I ask, maybe from people in the field, is this level of industrial/scientific espionage even a critical factor in our current world? We live in a global world where scientists in various institutions are constantly trading papers, findings. Why are we so worried that the U.S. migh…
A history of espionage and theft of trade secrets demonstrates the necessity of concern.
"Xiaoqing Zheng who holds dual-citizenship in the United States and China, used elaborate and sophisticated methods to steal countless digital files containing trade secrets from General Electric regarding their wind turbine technology" https://blog.twinstate.com/news/ge-trade-secrets-theft
Jizhong Chen and Xiaolang Zhang indicated in theft of trade secrets https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/09/apple-has-deep-concerns-that... https://www.digpu.com/business-and-finance/chinese-man-jizho...
"According to today’s conviction, Xu attempted to steal technology related to GE Aviation’s exclusive composite aircraft engine fan – which no other company in the world has been able to duplicate – to benefit the Chinese state." https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdoh/pr/jury-convicts-chinese-o...
" A notable example is the 2014 lawsuit by T-Mobile, in which Huawei was accused of, among other conduct, sending an engineer to a T-Mobile facility to see "Tappy," the company's computer driven robot with a mechanical arm used to test smartphone screens to improve the reliability of its handsets. The engineer slipped one of the robot's fingertips into his laptop bag but was caught on camera" https://www.mondaq.com/unitedstates/trade-secrets/1052104/th...
"A former associate scientist was sentenced to 24 months in federal prison in federal court today for stealing proprietary information worth more than $1 billion from his employer, a U.S. petroleum company." https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/chinese-national-sentenced-st...
There are dozens of such visible cases. The vast majority of trade-secret theft is uncaught.
Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist
#277Earlier quoted context omitted.
"McCarthyism" is a derogatory term for overzealous political witch-hunts which cause irreparable harm to honest, innocent citizens. What you mean is counter-intelligence, and yes, that's absolutely an important thing.
The term probably shouldn't mean that since there actually was a wealth of communist spies, sympathizers, etc. Ie, it was not a witch hunt. McCarthy's problem was using the Congress in an executive role.
Sure. I mean, there probably were witches too, they just weren't actually magical.
Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist
#278Earlier quoted context omitted.
You posted that response literally three minutes after my comment. That's barely enough time to read the introduction section of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution . I suggest you spend more than three minutes learning about a thing before complaining that things are not obvious to you about it. Three hours would be reasonable. You could spend the first hour or two just reading that article, or start w…
I don't see an equivalent turn of events in the US. Could you share what you mean?
Objectively speaking (I think both 'sides' are equally confused):
* People losing their careers over reactionary views/speech
* Historical monuments/names being destroyed (mostly relating to CSA/overt racism)
* Record levels of distrust. Anyone could be a Trumpist or "far left radical", so keep your distance.
* Large organizations are installing ideological offices to keep reactionary behavior in check, some going as far as "struggle sessions" (mandatory trainings)
* Political violence (not too severe yet)
It's not quite as extreme as the Chinese Cultural Revolution, but the parallels are certainly there and I hope it doesn't intensify.
Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist
#279Earlier quoted context omitted.
What’s the primary export of the United States? > Are you all really here in 2022, being like "we can't risk a Chinese national from even seeing our American semiconductor research, they will steal it and use it against us?" Are actual scientists concerned? Or just the state, and apparently most of the fellow commenters? It’s intellectual property. The majority of the worlds cutting edge research are designed, develo…
The majority, really? TSMC's fabs are in Taiwan, using ASML machines from the Netherlands. Much of their chips run ARM, from Cambridge. As I look at my tabs, I see Google Maps (invented by an Australian in Sydney), and Spotify (from Sweden). The world is far, far, bigger than the USA; and as an Australian, I'd say it's extremely pretentious or naive to think the US has a 'majority' of cutting edge tech.
The integrated circuit was invented in the U.S., and the semiconductor industry was pioneered in the U.S.
Op said that the U.S. pioneers and develops technology, giving a first mover advantage. Yes, eventually other countries catch up and start innovating on their own, but the point that the U.S. is generally the pioneer stands.
Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist
#280Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't understand how you think your point relates to it's parent. Are you just piggybacking off the point that the US does control export of semiconductor technology to make this separate point? Or are you suggesting the US shouldn't control export of semi-conductor technology in the same way they shouldn't restrict your publications on cryptography?
The parent comment says " any researcher's talk, paper, research, materials, etc. must undergo an export controls review first before it leaves the United States or is shown to a foreign national. This is SOP at every research lab in the United States. " My purpose in the comment is to point out that such review is not legally required for public academic research, and there are good constitutional and policy reasons…
"[p]ublic domain information which is published and is accessible or available to the public, unrestricted: publications & conferences, patents, fundamental research."
That's the definition for what falls under public domain and isn't export controlled, but say you are the one first publishing and bringing it in to the public domain. Would that first publication of something that isn't currently in the public domain fall under the exception?