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In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

nytimes.com

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Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#191

Post by JCharante »

iqanq wrote: post #64
_wldu wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We cannot marginalize segments of our population based on race, nationality, religion, sex, etc. and expect to remain competitive. This is a basic truth of economics. And it's also wrong to do that to people in the first place. Americans are Americans and we all should be treated equally by our government.

>We cannot marginalize segments of our population based on race, nationality, religion, sex, etc. and expect to remain competitive. Seems to be working for China.

I thought salaries in the STEM fields were higher for foreigners than locals. It's kinda like reverse-marginalization.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#192

Post by the_only_law »

n4r9 wrote: post #55
Tabular-Iceberg wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not. Why on earth would you want to have a bunch of Soviet or communist Chinese spies running around?

Iirc McCarthyism is the suppression of socialist ideas full stop, regardless of sympathy to Soviets or China.

You recall incorrectly

> McCarthyism is the practice of making accusations of subversion and treason, especially when related to communism and socialism.[1] The term originally referred to the controversial practices and policies of U.S. Senator Joseph McCarthy (R-Wisconsin), and has its origins in the period in the United States known as the Second Red Scare, lasting from the late 1940s through the 1950s. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#194

Post by RansomStark »

tharne wrote: post #183
commandlinefan wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To call this “equivalent “ yet.

Quoted post unavailable.

You're right, China was, not sure if you could claim it still is, suffering from an Islamic insurgency that was trying to form an Islamic caliphate. The Chinese government imprisoned 1M people in an attempt to prevent the success of that insurgency. They clearly went too far.

Around the same time the Chinese government started imprisoning Muslims, the US government started killing or was at the very least was a direct cause in the death of 1M muslims, not to stop violence but for revenge.

Oh and as far as concentration camps are concerned, there's a bunch of brown skinned kids in cages that would like a word

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#195

Post by sidlls »

beepbooptheory wrote: post #77

To at least attempt to think about this critically, and to try to ignore the amount of frankly shocking things people are saying here, can I ask, maybe from people in the field, is this level of industrial/scientific espionage even a critical factor in our current world? We live in a global world where scientists in various institutions are constantly trading papers, findings. Why are we so worried that the U.S. migh…

I've personally witnessed Chinese national students attempting to acquire access to sensitive lab equipment and documentation their research wouldn't require (this is physics, here, not CS).

I've been on the defensive end of attacks by employees (all Chinese citizens, living in China) in our Chinese organization attempting to breach data and infrastructure firewalls.

Once upon a time my work touched some sensitive, classified areas. I was more or less constantly harassed by rather hilarious and obvious attempts by Chinese individuals to gain access to the classified bits for a time.

We don't live in a world where scientific and technological advances are all to the good for humanity. There are politically powerful people who would see these things used to ends that hurt others for their own gain. It happens all the time, and likely will as long as humans are what we are.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#196

Post by kragen »

matthewdgreen wrote: post #123
jason-phillips wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you all really here in 2022, being like "we can't risk a Chinese national from even seeing our American semiconductor research, they will steal it and use it against us?" There are a number of issues at play here and I can speak to several of them, having either helped the federal government directly or having knowledge of industrial espionage in my industry at the time (semiconductors). Some technology is expo…

I am a professor in the field of cryptography and there are export restrictions here as well. Under no circumstances would I allow the US government to block publication of my papers or talks based on the theory that my speech is “a technology export.” It’s not even clear that this would be allowed under the First Amendment. The government could obviously try to advance that theory, but I strongly suspect they would…

As you are of course aware, but perhaps some people reading this are not, the government did consistently advance the theory that publication of speech about cryptography was "a technology export" subject to export control --- specifically, cryptographic source code --- until Bernstein v. United States, which required a several-years-long court battle.

You were a country that values free speech. Now you are a country that values "content moderation" to suppress "misinformation".

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#197

Post by matthewdgreen »

kragen wrote: post #196
matthewdgreen wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a professor in the field of cryptography and there are export restrictions here as well. Under no circumstances would I allow the US government to block publication of my papers or talks based on the theory that my speech is “a technology export.” It’s not even clear that this would be allowed under the First Amendment. The government could obviously try to advance that theory, but I strongly suspect they would…

As you are of course aware, but perhaps some people reading this are not, the government did consistently advance the theory that publication of speech about cryptography was "a technology export" subject to export control --- specifically, cryptographic source code --- until Bernstein v. United States , which required a several-years-long court battle. You were a country that values free speech. Now you are a countr…

This is exactly my point: the government advanced exactly this theory and the crucial point is they lost in court. They were forced to weaken the laws as a result. The new laws remain constitutionally untested and the government seems very eager to keep them that way.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#198

Post by kragen »

RHSeeger wrote: post #156
shadowgovt wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It looks like saving a billion dollars in redundant work, which is a net societal gain. Now consumers have two companies to choose chips from instead of one functional monopoly due to a trade secret moat... Win for consumers. ;) ... Hence my unease with the way the question is phrased. I'm not saying we should either mandate corporate espionage or enforce some kind of punishments for not publicizing designs, but my p…

> It looks like saving a billion dollars in redundant work, which is a net societal gain. Now consumers have two companies to choose chips from instead of one functional monopoly due to a trade secret moat... Win for consumers. ;) But looking at it from the company point of view. - Company A spends 5 billion $ researching a new fab, from which better chips can be made. - Company A expects to sell those chips as + + -…

For Company A it's a loss, for Company B it's a gain, and for the world it's a gain, because now there are more of those better chips than there would have been. The problem is that if Company A expects this to happen, they may not spend the US$5 billion in the first place, which is an even bigger loss for the world.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#199

Post by 1MachineElf »

gambiting wrote: post #18
ngcc_hk wrote: post #11

Given the nuclear bomb in China was helped by out-going chinese. Given china is a world power which is communist and totalitarian in nature. Can China be treated by Soviet Union? Yes you can. By allowing china playing the hand I can got yours but you cannot go to my market, even if you are not that political one should be very careful. Bad to be racist. Sorry to lose the war yes war to communists and totalitarians. B…

I honestly don't understand what you're saying. >>Sorry to lose the war yes war to communists and totalitarians Like, what does that even mean?

The "_hk" at the end of their username might be a clue on their perspective.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#200

Post by perihelions »

ping333pong wrote: post #56
teh_klev wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> were the affiliations unremarkable and not reportable but prosecutors screwed up? Yes, the prosecutors royally screwed up. From the article: "Prosecutors had floated the idea of a deferred prosecution agreement, which would have allowed him to return to work and apply for government grants in the future. In return, said his lawyer, Mr. Fisher, he would have to admit to having some ties to China, none of them a viol…

Chen has to declare foreign conflicts of interest if he takes federal grants.

There was no such legal requirement on this grant.

>"What tipped the scale, the people said, was an interview by prosecutors this month of a senior Energy Department official who is considered an authority on what disclosures are material on grant forms. The official confirmed that the 2017 form did not require disclosures of Chen’s ties to the technology university or other Chinese government organizations and programs, one person said"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/mit-gang-ch...

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