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Why Quantum Mechanics?

scottaaronson.blog

141–150 of 248 posts

Re: Why Quantum Mechanics?

#141

I've always liked these kinds of questions. Myself, I always wondered why specifically three dimensions. (Please don't start telling me about string theory.)

String theory is just intellectual wankery at this point. However, a more interesting and much simpler variation has just 5 dimensions, and was seriously studied by Einstein: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaluza%E2%80%93Klein_theory

Thanks for the link, TIL.

So given:

> In 1926, Oskar Klein proposed that the fourth spatial dimension is curled up in a circle of a very small radius, so that a particle moving a short distance along that axis would return to where it began. The distance a particle can travel before reaching its initial position is said to be the size of the dimension.

I've read many times that the shape of the universe could be a loop i.e if you traveled in one direction, over a long period you could possible loop to your starting point.

From that pasted from Wikipedia, in a looped-shaped universe, would that be the size of the dimension of the universe you just traveled?

Re: Why Quantum Mechanics?

#142
post #11

Randomly found a link to this video on super determinism from his blog and found it super interesting. 100% agree, what is 'free will' anyways? A concept with no scientific definition. Why is it even used to explain anything in quantum mechanics? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytyjgIyegDI

I think the question of free will is even simpler. It doesn't come down to determinism vs indeterminism because either way it's not "you" making a decision. At the lowest level (neuron or whatever) when a decision is "made" it is either deterministic (determinism) or probabilistic (indeterminism) based on physics but either way, where is the "you" in the process? Only way free will makes sense is if something superna…

You can't possibly hope for eliminativism to be meaningful? Like a computer is not on the level of a transistor, "you" is not on the level of a neuron, but on a higher integrative level.

Re: Why Quantum Mechanics?

#143
post #139
post #135

> Why didn't God just make the universe classical and be done with it? What would've been wrong with that choice? I hear it over and over and still don't understand the premise. Classical mechanics is not something sacred. It is our first serious model of physics. Our first approximation is based on the scales at which we operate and our senses as humans. Furthermore, even "regular" quantum mechanics is a non-relativ…

It seems like you misunderstood the actual question. It attempting to get at why QM might be inevitable, not why classical mechanics is

Well, the very quotation treats classical mechanics as a reference.

Q2 minus Q1 is much more interesting: why this specific theory (i.e. quantum mechanics), rather than anything else.

Re: Why Quantum Mechanics?

#144
post #62
post #11

Randomly found a link to this video on super determinism from his blog and found it super interesting. 100% agree, what is 'free will' anyways? A concept with no scientific definition. Why is it even used to explain anything in quantum mechanics? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytyjgIyegDI

The notion that quantum mechanics is associated with inherent chance in the universe thus explaining free will is itself problematic. There is no chance in the equations of quantum mechanics as the equations are fully deterministic. The probabilities appear only when we try to explain interaction of classical systems with quantum ones. Traditional explanation is that those probabilities are inherent to the world. But…

If you take this reasoning seriously you get the Everettian / "many worlds" interpretation of quantum mechanics. If a human experimenter is treated as a fundamentally quantum object then they end up entangled with the particle they're measuring.

This is (to me) a highly appealing model for what is going on, but we still don't really know how to go from this viewpoint to what we observe in experiments, which is the Born rule.

Re: Why Quantum Mechanics?

#145
post #135

> Why didn't God just make the universe classical and be done with it? What would've been wrong with that choice? I hear it over and over and still don't understand the premise. Classical mechanics is not something sacred. It is our first serious model of physics. Our first approximation is based on the scales at which we operate and our senses as humans. Furthermore, even "regular" quantum mechanics is a non-relativ…

To elaborate on this a bit:

One may argue that "a state" is a simpler concept than "a superposition of all state".

Even in pure mathematics [1], I don't think that (say) real numbers are less fundamental than natural (unlike Kronecker in "Natural numbers were created by God, everything else is the work of men"). What's true for the set theory route, does not need to be true for any possible mathematics, including those created by other species.

For me, it is perfectly conceivable that some aliens use Hilbert space, and for them natural numbers are a particular concept (finitely dimensional vector -> n=1 -> zeros of sin(𝜋z) = 0 & Γ(z+1) is finite, or something in that line).

In this sense, if you understand quantization as a map between a set (e.g. {0, 1}) and a vector space over a set (e.g. |psi> = a |0> + b |1>), then it is harder within this conceptualization. For aliens, "a basis state" (i.e. |0> or |1>) might be not an object worth studying on its own.

When it comes to the path from classical to quantum physics - yes, it is full of question marks. The only hints I know come from "Quantum principle of relativity" by Dragan & Ekert (previously on arXiv with a more inflammatory title, "Why devil plays dice?").

Yes, there is a contrast with cases, in physics, in which a more advanced theory could be deduced purely with the elimination of inconsistencies, or strive for mathematical beauty, e.g.:

E/M -(symmetry)-> Maxwell equations -(Minkowski transformation)-> Special Relativity

or

non-relativistic quantum -(SR)-> Dirac equation -(Klein paradox)-> QFT

At the same time, I think it is a wild hypothesis that "any physics theory point to a more advanced theory only with its own ugliness and inconsistencies".

Furthermore, like almost anyone, I used to believe that it is always possible to reduce a "more advanced" theory to a "less advanced" one. Sure, for SR you take v/c For anything dealing with emergent phenomena, well - it is (IMHO) not as straightforward as it may seem at the first glance. Decoherence is one of these cases. For even simpler ones - how to turn molecules of water into their macroscopic properties (temperature, pressure, viscosity). Yes, we can do it (well, with T and p, but still - not viscosity); but if we haven't seen any field in our life, we would not ask such questions in the first place. Even the concept of temperature would be some arbitrary, made-up quantity.

Anecdote on a students' conference there were two talks after each other - one on bubbles in beer, and the other - C-star-algebras. The latter claimed that it is the more fundamental, ergo better, way of dealing with physics. Iwo Bialynicki-Birula (theoretical physics) smiled and asked the second speaker: "And how would you derive the beer bubble from C-star-algebras?")

[1] Disclaimer: I believe that mathematics is created by humans, not something existing on its own. An abstraction of our language, and our sensory experiences. If we were a slime mold, maybe we wouldn't come with the idea of integers at all. Evolutionary speaking, integers are an abstraction over counting own offsprings, and perhaps - estimating strengths of groups when hunting or protecting.

As a side note, it was really fun to have a longer conversation with Penrose, having very different views (also: I am Everettian, and have a naturalistic view towards consciousness, in the spirit of Dennett). After that, I got a clear idea that "the root of all misconceptions" is the assumption that mathematics exists beyond a human concept.

Re: Why Quantum Mechanics?

#146
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Physicists don't largely choose physical theories on whether they make life meaningful or not. I think you're thinking of religious people.

I'm not. Otherwise why would physicists support the concept of free will so strongly without any evidence for it. It is borderline religious. The video I posted above says as much.

Physicists essentially like "free will" because it is essential to do physics in a meaningful way (*). If you have something like superdeterminism then everything can be set up to make it look like your experimental results mean something, but while you're not looking anything could be happening, since your choice of what experiment to do can be correlated with the system you're observing without you knowing it.

For example you can have a system with two possible states, A and B. My decision to do experiments some superdeterministic setup is correlated with the state of the sytem so I only do experiments when the state of the system is A. I conclude that A is a physical law, but I'm completely wrong, its quite often B but I am only "choosing" to do experiments when it A.

(*) this is my opinion and the opinion of many, but absolutely not all physicists

Re: Why Quantum Mechanics?

#147
post #143
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like you misunderstood the actual question. It attempting to get at why QM might be inevitable, not why classical mechanics is

Well, the very quotation treats classical mechanics as a reference. Q2 minus Q1 is much more interesting: why this specific theory (i.e. quantum mechanics), rather than anything else.

Q1 answers the anything else part, not Q2 which is only limited to variations of properties of QM.

Re: Why Quantum Mechanics?

#148

Q1: Why didn’t God just make the universe classical and be done with it? What would’ve been wrong with that choice? Why mention God? If you're attempting a scientific stance, starting your initial question with an unproven deity who doesn't want us to eat meat on Fridays part of the year, why? Why include that, it's an instant turnoff to any evidence-based reader.

Why assume a specific deity? There is nothing in that text that assumes that this is the god Christians believe in. For all we know, it could be the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

I don't think there is a problem in mentioning God as a shorthand for "whatever caused the universe to be the way it is and cannot be proven". Like axioms in maths, you need some unproven assumptions to do something, otherwise you get ridiculous situations like Boltzmann brains.

Q1 could be understood as "why is the universe so weird as to require quantum mechanics?" It is undecidable, just like god is, but it makes the point that quantum mechanics may take us a bit too far. For example, it may result in said Boltzmann brains, and once you get to that point, the science become meaningless.

The maths of quantum mechanics check out, this is unquestionable, but the article is about the deeper implications, at the limit of philosophy. If you are in the "shut up and calculate" camp (which is fine), it may be meaningless to you, but I don't think it is an unscientific debate.

Re: Why Quantum Mechanics?

#149
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly feel that the mystery of consciousness is somehow deeply tied into why we have things like QM and not classical physics. If it was just classical physics, then you get yourself into the thinking that you can rewind time and all the "billiard balls" knock into each other the same way, which is why you order a soup and not a sandwich every single time on that day. That eliminate free will. There is something…

IMO the concept of free will doesn't make sense, at least not without also believing in the existence of a soul. If you were to make a decision that is not in some sense pre-determined by the structure of your brain (as shaped by biology and past experiences), it would be essentially random and just as meaningless as an uranium atom "deciding" to decay at some specific moment and not another.

Free will, as physicists talk about it, essentially means that my choice to perform some experiments is independent of the state of the system I'm experimenting on.

In other words I want it to be true that looking at the system doesn't tell you anything about when / whether I'm going to be performing experiments on it today, and more specifically I don't want you to be able to predict which measurements I'm going to do based on the system alone (i.e. without asking me).

This notion of free will is (as far as I can tell) completely necessary in order to meaningfully do physics at all.

Re: Why Quantum Mechanics?

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"moral responsibility, essential no, it cannot exist again unless supernatural is involved for the same reasons outlined above, there is no "you" making a decision, just a process." This view is based on a misunderstanding of what moral responsibility is. Moral responsibility is essentially credit assignment [1]. It exists as a concept not because it matters whether or not you actually could have done differently bef…

> When you make a bad decision, according to the other machines surrounding you (society) or your own brain's reward system, you are assigned blame or feel guilty because you should avoid making the same decision again in a similar situation. But if free will does not exist then other machines (humans) aren't making these decisions either... it's turtles all the way down so to speak. You could go on to say that the e…

If there's no choice and everything is meaningless, then why do you post here?
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