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In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

nytimes.com

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Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#61

Post by JackFr »

sigmaprimus wrote: post #2

This is a troubling story in so many ways, I don't know what the answer to the problem is but feel something needs to change within the government when people are subjected to what can only be described as a witch trial bordering on McCarthyism. The fact the state and his own lawyer were pressing him to take a deal is also very troubling as it echoes the plight of many impoverished young men who lost their families,…

When both the state and his lawyer were pressing him to take the deal, both the state and his lawyer believed he was guilty.

The charges were withdrawn, as I understand it, when the Department of Energy clarified the understanding of the grant application for the US attorney and they came to the conclusion that there was not a duty to disclose the particular affiliation.

There’s no doubt that this caused professional harm to him. At the same time the US government has a reasonable interest in knowing of the foreign government affiliations of researchers it funds, and should reasonably pursue those who flout the rules.

Was this prosecution flawed? It seems very much so. Was it pursued reasonably and in good faith? It’s hard to say it wasn’t, unless your outlook is to be immediately suspicious of prosecutors.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#62

Post by pverghese »

ping333pong wrote: post #56
teh_klev wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> were the affiliations unremarkable and not reportable but prosecutors screwed up? Yes, the prosecutors royally screwed up. From the article: "Prosecutors had floated the idea of a deferred prosecution agreement, which would have allowed him to return to work and apply for government grants in the future. In return, said his lawyer, Mr. Fisher, he would have to admit to having some ties to China, none of them a viol…

Chen has to declare foreign conflicts of interest if he takes federal grants.

The prosecution themselves have said that there was no reporting requirement for that.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#63

Post by MadSudaca »

lucian1900 wrote: post #54
Tabular-Iceberg wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not. Why on earth would you want to have a bunch of Soviet or communist Chinese spies running around?

McCarthyism was about class struggle. Persecuting all communists, socialists and trade unionists made it less likely the working class would rise up against the capitalist ruling class. It worked for the Nazis, after all. You seem to have internalised this logic, since you're assuming all communists are spies for another nation.

> made it less likely the working class would rise up against the capitalist ruling class

It would make it less likely for the country to shoot itself in the foot and radically lower the standards of living of its citizens, like happened and, unfortunately, still happens, in every country that adopted communist ideas in their government.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#64

Post by iqanq »

_wldu wrote: post #34
batushka3 wrote: post #23

Quoted post unavailable.

We cannot marginalize segments of our population based on race, nationality, religion, sex, etc. and expect to remain competitive. This is a basic truth of economics. And it's also wrong to do that to people in the first place. Americans are Americans and we all should be treated equally by our government.

>We cannot marginalize segments of our population based on race, nationality, religion, sex, etc. and expect to remain competitive.

Seems to be working for China.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#65

Post by scollet »

Tabular-Iceberg wrote: post #52
teh_klev wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Like McCarthyism it’s a noble cause I'm unsure if this is sarcasm or not.

It’s not. Why on earth would you want to have a bunch of Soviet or communist Chinese spies running around?

This still sounds like sarcasm tbh.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#66

Post by Lendal »

DocTomoe wrote: post #51
batushka3 wrote: post #23

Quoted post unavailable.

Ah yes, the "Japanese-American relocation centers argument". It was a criminal state violating human rights back then, and it is a human rights violation today.

Democracy is not a criminal state. That's nihilism. Nihilism tells us to let criminals off the hook and not hold them accountable, because of course they're part of a criminal state, "the government". But that's just as wrong as what these officials did. These people infiltrated my government, allowed their personal prejudices to affect their professional decision-making and the result was a man-made catastrophe. We can't let them off by saying "oh well it's a criminal state, this is normal behavior for them." No, it's not normal. Hold these people accountable. Fight against it.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#67

Post by thfuran »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #42
batushka3 wrote: post #23

Quoted post unavailable.

No. False positives in the justice system are never acceptable. Even a single case will undermine faith in the entire system. If you want to persecute chinese scientists, you can't do it under the guise of justice and expect people to take the justice system seriously afterwards. Getting arrested over bureaucratic nonsense like failing to disclose some affiliation? That's some 1984 stuff.

>No. False positives in the justice system are never acceptable. Even a single case will undermine faith in the entire system.

What you replied to is ridiculous, but so is this. At scale, false positives are inevitable. The only way to ensure no false positives is to never convict anyone. And false negatives also undermine faith in the justice system.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#68

Post by ekianjo »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #42
batushka3 wrote: post #23

Quoted post unavailable.

No. False positives in the justice system are never acceptable. Even a single case will undermine faith in the entire system. If you want to persecute chinese scientists, you can't do it under the guise of justice and expect people to take the justice system seriously afterwards. Getting arrested over bureaucratic nonsense like failing to disclose some affiliation? That's some 1984 stuff.

> No. False positives in the justice system are never acceptable

Welcome to human systems. Expecting 100% rigor is never going to happen.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#69

Post by [deleted] »

throwawayay02 wrote: post #9
sigmaprimus wrote: post #2

This is a troubling story in so many ways, I don't know what the answer to the problem is but feel something needs to change within the government when people are subjected to what can only be described as a witch trial bordering on McCarthyism. The fact the state and his own lawyer were pressing him to take a deal is also very troubling as it echoes the plight of many impoverished young men who lost their families,…

> These are the stories the RWM doesn't cover as it does not fit their narrative. That's just ridiculous.

[deleted]

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#70

Post by mizzao »

tejohnso wrote: post #36

> “My thinking is, I didn’t do anything wrong,” he said. “So whatever they look at, they won’t find that I did anything wrong.” This statement seems like a completely backward mindset to have, especially after watching this classic advice piece on youtube [1]. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE

Wow, what an insightful video. In nerdy terms, the prosecution will basically p-hack your case until they get statistical significance.
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