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In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

nytimes.com

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Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#41

Post by lordnacho »

throwawayarnty wrote: post #10

The worst part of these accusations is that your reputation is tarnished whether you are guilty or not. This instilled a sense of fear in every person even if they are innocent because you can still be targeted and your career ruined. If this scientist was just stating out, rather than already established, he would likely have had to quit science. There should be some penalty for false accusations that can compensate…

They are also accusations of nothing specific. "Association with China" doesn't seem like it's specific enough to warrant sanction, all it can do it make people suspicious, which it does regardless of whether you've even done anything with China.

I accept the US is having a power struggle with China at the moment, but this is not the way to win it. People who aren't actually in favor of freedom will welcome this "record who associates with China" thing, but it goes against the high ideals of the US and makes it look like many unsavory countries.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#42

Post by matheusmoreira »

batushka3 wrote: post #23

Quoted post unavailable.

No. False positives in the justice system are never acceptable. Even a single case will undermine faith in the entire system.

If you want to persecute chinese scientists, you can't do it under the guise of justice and expect people to take the justice system seriously afterwards. Getting arrested over bureaucratic nonsense like failing to disclose some affiliation? That's some 1984 stuff.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#44

Post by mtsr »

_wldu wrote: post #34
batushka3 wrote: post #23

Quoted post unavailable.

We cannot marginalize segments of our population based on race, nationality, religion, sex, etc. and expect to remain competitive. This is a basic truth of economics. And it's also wrong to do that to people in the first place. Americans are Americans and we all should be treated equally by our government.

Absolutely. But there’s also a large number of Chinese (rather than Chinese-American or Chinese-[European]) scientists working at Western institutes on Chinese grants. And things become a lot trickier there. Especially as there have been more than a few very visible cases of espionage that happened similarly.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#45

Post by ping333pong »

_wldu wrote: post #34
batushka3 wrote: post #23

Quoted post unavailable.

We cannot marginalize segments of our population based on race, nationality, religion, sex, etc. and expect to remain competitive. This is a basic truth of economics. And it's also wrong to do that to people in the first place. Americans are Americans and we all should be treated equally by our government.

Who says Chinese spies are ethnically Chinese? Charles Lieber isn’t ethnically Chinese. Money can corrupt regardless.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#46

Post by teh_klev »

Tabular-Iceberg wrote: post #32

Like McCarthyism it’s a noble cause, but I can’t help but wonder if these initiatives rather tend to be outsmarted by the real spies. People who are accidentally incriminated by clerical errors and misunderstandings are much lower hanging fruit.

> Like McCarthyism it’s a noble cause

I'm unsure if this is sarcasm or not.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#47

Post by bsenftner »

throwawayarnty wrote: post #10

The worst part of these accusations is that your reputation is tarnished whether you are guilty or not. This instilled a sense of fear in every person even if they are innocent because you can still be targeted and your career ruined. If this scientist was just stating out, rather than already established, he would likely have had to quit science. There should be some penalty for false accusations that can compensate…

The worst part is he spirit has been crushed; he can no longer work for fear of irrational and frankly random political views and actions detrimental to his health, his research, and his family. If he is to continue and regain an amount of his former life, I wager it can only occur after leaving the USA permanently.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#48

Post by andi999 »

"The dismissal is a setback to the China Initiative, an effort started in 2018 to crack down on economic and scientific espionage by China."

No, it is not. Why would it be a setback if somebody who is innocent has their case dismissed. I mean who writes such lines? Doesnt this line imply that this dismissal was a bad thing (since nobody endorses espionage).

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#49

Post by otrahuevada »

refurb wrote: post #30
neither_color wrote: post #26

Last week, the government dismissed the case against Dr. Chen, which alleged that he had concealed seven Chinese affiliations in applications for $2.7 million in grants from the U.S. Energy Department. Prosecutors announced that they had received new information indicating that Dr. Chen had not been obliged to disclose those affiliations, undercutting the basis of the case. I feel like this part could use more detail…

Agreed. It seems like the details matter here. Were the affiliations suspect but not reportable? Or were the affiliations unremarkable and not reportable but prosecutors screwed up?

According to the article the State discovered, way late, that the kind of ties he had with China were not of the kind they assumed guilt of and heavily publicized when they went to destroy his professional life, but instead of the kind people have when they are born elsewhere.

When they did find out about this, they instead tried to make him admit to some other non criminal kind of ties to justify their ruining of his life, and when that failed they simply bailed out.

It's heartbreaking.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#50

Post by gurkendoktor »

_wldu wrote: post #34
batushka3 wrote: post #23

Quoted post unavailable.

We cannot marginalize segments of our population based on race, nationality, religion, sex, etc. and expect to remain competitive. This is a basic truth of economics. And it's also wrong to do that to people in the first place. Americans are Americans and we all should be treated equally by our government.

No disagreement about ethics, but:

> This is a basic truth of economics.

Is this basic truth backed up by anything tangible? Ethnic Chinese already face unfair hurdles by the current push against standardized testing. But one more obstacle would suddenly make the US unable to compete? With whom, anyway - the only worthy competitor I can think of is hardly egalitarian.

It seems like dangerously wishful thinking to me that liberal ethics, or just basic fairness, automatically translates into economic strength.

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