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Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

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Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#571

Post by tekknik »

dools wrote: post #240

The funny thing is that everyone commenting here thinks that we're headed towards an authoritarian nightmare, but for different reasons. It's not until you sit with someone and nut out what they mean by "authoritarian" and "censorship" and so on that you realise you're completely morally and politically opposed to them. This shallow political take is what allows so many strange bedfellows to unite on the "political r…

> This shallow political take is what allows so many strange bedfellows to unite on the "political right" (which is no longer really a relevant tag).

I find it interesting that when someone goes the extra mile and posts a long and we’ll thought out article attempting to undo this massive divide cause by this mistrust that within the first few comments you find someone stating in a very condescending way that republicans are idiots.

You’re doing more harm than whatever good you think you’re doing. Nobody is going to be shamed into believing your beliefs. That should be clear by now.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#572

Post by tekknik »

judahmeek wrote: post #280
zpeti wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a difference between a child and an adult. We make that distinction for a reason, and we act differently for a reason. A great analogy is to think of an eggshell with a chick inside. The eggshell provides protection for a long time but is also restrictive. When the chick is strong enough it will break free. But if it breaks free too early it won’t be strong enough to survive in the world.

Do you have any statistical studies that show that adults are less likely to be manipulated than children? If so, how was "manipulation" defined exactly?

Do you actually need studies? Adults for the most part are more educated, children are not. Therefore it’s easier to tell a child a lie than an adult. You can use basic logic.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#573

Post by tekknik »

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #486
perryizgr8 wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw a video in which Richard Feynman was asked to explain why magnets repel. He went on a long tirade but finally the answer was "magnets repel, because they do". Asking for a deeper explanation does not make sense unless you want to study theoretical physics for the rest of your life. I feel this question about human rights falls into a similar category. They are required. If you want to go deeper into the reasons…

> They are required. Why are they required and what are they required for? Countries exist that don't have the exact same human rights, so clearly those rights don't need to exist for a nation or an individual to successfully exist.

Did you not read the post? The answer as to why is a very deep discussion. Sure North Korea exists, do you want to live there? Maybe start with personal feelings?

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#574

Post by throwawaygh »

double_nan wrote: post #195
throwawaygh wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Red herring.

I got your point, but what is the hill we should die on? I'd say censorship is the one.

> what is the hill we should die on?

Substack's incentives are even worse than YouTube or Facebook.

If you think YT and FB were good for western democracy, then I guess you can die on that hill.

Otherwise, die on the hill of "fuck those profiteers and the very specific capitalists very much among us right now in this exact setting that enable them, who should probably know better by now"

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#575

Post by prox »

jimkleiber wrote: post #556
prox wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I find rampant these days is the rather extreme way of thinking “If you are not with me, you are against me.” And I think social media amplifies this, not only by algorithms, but also because text doesn’t provide good context (intonation, stance, emotional transference) , I mean we literally read other people’s thought in our own head, also those whose thoughts we are not congruent with. HNs rules are great in t…

I agree that much of the design of social media can contribute to this. As much as I love this: > HNs rules are great in this sense, to continuously seek out curious conversations instead of the rather solipsist tendency to soapbox. I also just thought how HN may contribute to this through design. I'm replying to your post right now and I can only see your post on my screen. While I can click "parent" in the menu to…

I agree, what seem like small design decisions can have great impact. I wonder if studies are being done on this. Something like About Face on interaction design, but then specifically on effective communication and discourse.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#576

Post by mschuster91 »

TrispusAttucks wrote: post #569
mschuster91 wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, one thing I must point out is that climate change is a complex problem with no easy solutions. Indeed, but right now we are doing almost nothing meaningful. We shame people from taking vacation flights once every couple years but don't ban short distance "business flights" for corporate executives with a completely bonkers view on how important they are. We still don't mandate the end of "bunker fuel" burn…

One again I agree with most of what you're suggesting here. One more point of nuance though. What is the carbon foot print of replacing all the rail and freight? Do we have the funds to make these changes all at once? How quickly can we realistically change out our entire fossil fuel infrastructure? The first motor car was in 1886, over 130 years ago. The first mass produced motor car was 1908, Over 110 years ago. We…

> What is the carbon foot print of replacing all the rail and freight?

You don't need to replace the rails, only add overhead power. Which, granted, isn't free in terms of CO2, but saves a lot of fossil fuel emissions and particulate matter emissions for those living adjacent to rail routes (which is mostly poor people, so this issue also has a social impact) down the roat.

> Do we have the funds to make these changes all at once?

The US spends more on their military than the next 7-11 (depending on which source you want to cite) countries combined. The US spends twice as much per person for healthcare than European countries, with worse results.

There are way more than enough ways to fund a transportation revolution, and in the worst case the US Government can issue special ear-marked bonds.

> How quickly can we realistically change out our entire fossil fuel infrastructure?

Two to three decades. Which coincidentally lines up with the predictions on when climate change will hit the "irreversibility" point.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#577

Post by throwawaygh »

cf141q5325 wrote: post #293
throwawaygh wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP is clearly referring to censorship in the "admin bans you from their website if you say things they don't like" sense, not the "government throws you in jail if you say wrong thing" sense. These conversations tend to become unproductive and devolve when folks conflate these two senses of the word censorship. IMO, we should use "content moderation" for the former and "censorship" for the latter, congruent with hist…

It makes misunderstandings more likely, however i am not so sure if the distinction still exists when every conversation online is covered by private-sector censorship. Seeing as in the end the private sector always has governments influencing their moderation policy. And be it just through liability.

My point was more abut misunderstandings, which is why at the end I say "whatever, as long as we're all on the same page, others can pick the names."

> i am not so sure if the distinction still exists when every conversation online is covered by private-sector censorship

That's certainly fair, and I think a particularly prescient observation in favor of the conclusion that it's time to severely restrict legal protections for social media platforms.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#578

Post by throwawaygh »

Chris2048 wrote: post #377
throwawaygh wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP is clearly referring to censorship in the "admin bans you from their website if you say things they don't like" sense, not the "government throws you in jail if you say wrong thing" sense. These conversations tend to become unproductive and devolve when folks conflate these two senses of the word censorship. IMO, we should use "content moderation" for the former and "censorship" for the latter, congruent with hist…

> will claim I'm being biased, even though I view the whole debate as a bit of red herring that distracts from the real issues This implies you don't think "content moderation" is a "real" problem, which suggests to me you are biased. Also, "moderation" to me suggests mere moderation (consistent with fair, stated guideline) versus moderation "if you say things they don't like". This kind of fight happens all over the…

Dude... I literally said we can call it whatever you want. What are you on about?

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#579

Post by modo_mario »

dontcare007 wrote: post #456
cloutchaser wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the right certainly had their fear based issues before the pandemic, it’s a bit of a stretch to say the left didn’t. Trump was going to become a dictator. We had 12 years to go living on earth 4 years ago. Apparently almost everyone is a white supremacist… I could go on. Why didn’t Obama revoke the patriot act if he was so on the side of non fear? Or allow more whistleblowing.

Heck, 20 years ago we had 10 years until climate change killed us all.

Media hyperbole aside especially when it comes to US conservative coverage... we still didn't get anywhere close to the measures climate scientists wish we took and we're still chugging onwards with a very slow increase in average temperatures which are in line if not above what was predicted

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#580

Post by Chris2048 »

throwawaygh wrote: post #578
Chris2048 wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> will claim I'm being biased, even though I view the whole debate as a bit of red herring that distracts from the real issues This implies you don't think "content moderation" is a "real" problem, which suggests to me you are biased. Also, "moderation" to me suggests mere moderation (consistent with fair, stated guideline) versus moderation "if you say things they don't like". This kind of fight happens all over the…

Dude... I literally said we can call it whatever you want. What are you on about?

Where did you say that? I directly quoted what I'm responding to.
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