Anti-work subreddit goes private after rough Fox News interview • Hacker News Board

Re: Anti-work subreddit goes private after rough Fox News interview

#151

Post by bjourne » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 11:47 PM UTC

dnadler wrote: post #148

bjourne wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I think technological progress is driven by human ingenuity and not work. I don't think work should be the entrance fee to society. You're saying that if I don't work then bad things should happen to me. I should starve (since I can't hunt nor grow vegetables) and I should not have a computer or even electricity. I.e. I should be punished. I don't see how that improves my life or society. I think these ideas ru…

I think what most people are saying is that if you're not working to feed yourself, then someone else is . And further, it's not fair to ask society to pick up the slack for people who could contribute, but choose not to. In other words: by saying you shouldn't starve for refusing to work, aren't you also saying that someone else should grow your food for you for free?

My job is completely detached from the processes and people that ensure there is food on my table. There is no slack to pick up because there is no contribution. Most software developers are in the exact same position. There is no "contributing" in programming casino sites, optimizing trading algorithms to make fat cats richer, or developing aaa games. Society would be better off if we didn't work.

Re: Anti-work subreddit goes private after rough Fox News interview

#152

Post by NoPicklez » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 11:56 PM UTC

bjourne wrote: post #142

d1sxeyes wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you’re completely wrong about progress. We can travel in less than 24 hours to pretty much anywhere on the planet. We can put telescopes in space. We can speak to each other even when we’re in different cities. None of this would be possible if no-one worked. Either we all go back to being hunter gatherers, or we exploit the poor to do our fair share of the work that needs to be done for us to live the lifest…

Well, I think technological progress is driven by human ingenuity and not work. I don't think work should be the entrance fee to society. You're saying that if I don't work then bad things should happen to me. I should starve (since I can't hunt nor grow vegetables) and I should not have a computer or even electricity. I.e. I should be punished. I don't see how that improves my life or society. I think these ideas ru…

That's not true.

You might have invented electricity or the computer through ingenuity, but who is going to build the infrastructure that supports it? Who is going to build the poles in your suburb to get the electricity to you? Who is going to build the telecommunications infrastructure and maintain it such that if it breaks there is someone there to fix it?

Re: Anti-work subreddit goes private after rough Fox News interview

#153

Post by bjourne » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 12:06 AM UTC

NoPicklez wrote: post #152

bjourne wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I think technological progress is driven by human ingenuity and not work. I don't think work should be the entrance fee to society. You're saying that if I don't work then bad things should happen to me. I should starve (since I can't hunt nor grow vegetables) and I should not have a computer or even electricity. I.e. I should be punished. I don't see how that improves my life or society. I think these ideas ru…

That's not true. You might have invented electricity or the computer through ingenuity, but who is going to build the infrastructure that supports it? Who is going to build the poles in your suburb to get the electricity to you? Who is going to build the telecommunications infrastructure and maintain it such that if it breaks there is someone there to fix it?

How come volunteer fire departments exist?

Re: Anti-work subreddit goes private after rough Fox News interview

#154

Post by wiseowise » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 7:38 AM UTC

Slippery_John wrote: post #75

wiseowise wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's like saying house prices in San Francisco are set by how much people are willing to pay. They literally are. > It's true but hides the real problem which is housing is unaffordable for many in that area. Area has finite amount of estate. The only "solution" is to create ghettos of human hives which lead to classes of problems on their own.

Some people own multiple homes. Some people rent out those second homes. Some turn them into glorified hotels via AirBnB and the like. Some merely sit on them as an investment vehicle or a tax avoidance scheme. These people are leeches on society, artificially increasing housing prices while providing no real value. > The only "solution" is to create ghettos of human hives which lead to classes of problems on their o…

> As a general rule, one can assume that anybody who refers to humans as an infestation or their homes as hives is not a good person. Have the day you deserve.

Anything concrete to say, aside from weak ad-hominem?

I grew up in post-USSR, I'm pretty sure I know much more about human hives than you do. And I never said anything about infestation. Every family should have their own home.

Re: Anti-work subreddit goes private after rough Fox News interview

#155

Post by d1sxeyes » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 7:45 AM UTC

bjourne wrote: post #142

d1sxeyes wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you’re completely wrong about progress. We can travel in less than 24 hours to pretty much anywhere on the planet. We can put telescopes in space. We can speak to each other even when we’re in different cities. None of this would be possible if no-one worked. Either we all go back to being hunter gatherers, or we exploit the poor to do our fair share of the work that needs to be done for us to live the lifest…

Well, I think technological progress is driven by human ingenuity and not work. I don't think work should be the entrance fee to society. You're saying that if I don't work then bad things should happen to me. I should starve (since I can't hunt nor grow vegetables) and I should not have a computer or even electricity. I.e. I should be punished. I don't see how that improves my life or society. I think these ideas ru…

> You're saying that if I don't work then bad things should happen to me.

No, you’re saying ‘I should be allowed to opt out of work while others labour in fields and cobalt mines and cocoa plantations’. If you can’t hunt or grow vegetables, you should perform some other task that society thinks is valuable, and share your part of collective responsibility that way.

Exploitation is already a big enough issue without us making it worse. Brave New World describes very well exactly what would happen - we would end up with worker castes and ruler castes. I see the work already moving in this direction and it is sad.

I have absolutely no problems with people choosing to work fewer hours or in less lucrative professions, provided they are not expecting society to pick up their slack.

Don’t forget that for every farmer in the fields, you also need some sort of supply chain and distribution network, you need people to build the trucks and drive them, you need people to gather the resources needed to build trucks, you need the folks drilling for oil and those working at the oil refineries, as well as the ships that bring the oil to where it’s needed (as well as folks gathering the resources and turning them into ship parts etc.)

We can afford this now because everyone who buys a vegetable in a shop pays a tiny fraction of all these costs. If nobody had to pay for vegetables any more, it’s not just the farmer who is working ‘for free’.

This is just one small product, and the simplest example I could think of. I would imagine that computers and the internet would have significantly more people who would need to work for free in order for you to have a computer.

Re: Anti-work subreddit goes private after rough Fox News interview

#156

Post by d1sxeyes » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 7:49 AM UTC

bjourne wrote: post #153

NoPicklez wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not true. You might have invented electricity or the computer through ingenuity, but who is going to build the infrastructure that supports it? Who is going to build the poles in your suburb to get the electricity to you? Who is going to build the telecommunications infrastructure and maintain it such that if it breaks there is someone there to fix it?

How come volunteer fire departments exist?

I think most volunteer fire fighters have other jobs.

https://www.quora.com/I-dont-understand-volunteer-firefighte...

Re: Anti-work subreddit goes private after rough Fox News interview

#157

Post by d1sxeyes » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 7:56 AM UTC

bjourne wrote: post #151

dnadler wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what most people are saying is that if you're not working to feed yourself, then someone else is . And further, it's not fair to ask society to pick up the slack for people who could contribute, but choose not to. In other words: by saying you shouldn't starve for refusing to work, aren't you also saying that someone else should grow your food for you for free?

My job is completely detached from the processes and people that ensure there is food on my table. There is no slack to pick up because there is no contribution. Most software developers are in the exact same position. There is no "contributing" in programming casino sites, optimizing trading algorithms to make fat cats richer, or developing aaa games. Society would be better off if we didn't work.

Programming casino sites has value because people choose to spend the money that they earn gambling.

Society decides which tasks have value and which don’t by whether consumers spend money on the work product produced by those tasks.

Now, society’s way of working this out isn’t perfect, but how else should we determine which jobs are adding value and which are not?

Re: Anti-work subreddit goes private after rough Fox News interview

#158

Post by d1sxeyes » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 8:03 AM UTC

bjourne wrote: post #149

NeutralCrane wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because society isn't a free resource, it requires time and effort (i.e. work) to create and maintain, and that work can either be distributed across its members, or it can be done entirely by some and others simply mooch off of their work. If you feel like work is disproportionately done by some and not others, or that some work creates no value, that's a valid argument and worth exploring. But the idea that people…

Workfree societies have existed so it is incorrect to claim that work is required for society to exist. For example, the free software community exists and is workfree. However, it seems you and many others are incapable to rationally reason about these issues since you implied that "people with this particular anti-work view" (i.e. me) just wants to be the ones doing the exploiting. It's plain as day that a massive…

The free software community is not ‘work free’.

Many free software developers work for organisations who have chosen to share their work freely because their revenue stream comes from support or hosting.

There are free software projects where hobbyists build things to scratch a personal itch, but most of these people are contributing their free time and have another job.

You keep repeating the point that ‘a massive number of jobs are not necessary’. Can you define what is ‘necessary work’ and how society can determine a priori what that work might be?

Re: Anti-work subreddit goes private after rough Fox News interview

#159

Post by bjourne » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 9:02 AM UTC

d1sxeyes wrote: post #155

bjourne wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I think technological progress is driven by human ingenuity and not work. I don't think work should be the entrance fee to society. You're saying that if I don't work then bad things should happen to me. I should starve (since I can't hunt nor grow vegetables) and I should not have a computer or even electricity. I.e. I should be punished. I don't see how that improves my life or society. I think these ideas ru…

> You're saying that if I don't work then bad things should happen to me. No, you’re saying ‘I should be allowed to opt out of work while others labour in fields and cobalt mines and cocoa plantations’. If you can’t hunt or grow vegetables, you should perform some other task that society thinks is valuable, and share your part of collective responsibility that way. Exploitation is already a big enough issue without u…

> No, you’re saying ‘I should be allowed to opt out of work while others labour in fields and cobalt mines and cocoa plantations’.

I didn't write anything even resembling that. If that is your interpretation then continuing the discussion with you is meaningless.

Re: Anti-work subreddit goes private after rough Fox News interview

#160

Post by bjourne » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 9:03 AM UTC

d1sxeyes wrote: post #156

bjourne wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How come volunteer fire departments exist?

I think most volunteer fire fighters have other jobs. https://www.quora.com/I-dont-understand-volunteer-firefighte...

That doesn't answer my question, does it?