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The case against masks at school

theatlantic.com

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Re: The case against masks at school

#781

Post by shadowofneptune »

skillpass wrote: post #776
shadowofneptune wrote: post #728

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just students being affected, but educators and those who supervise residents. There will be less and less spots available in residency programs, nursing programs, etc. due to this. That was already a problem pre-pandemic: https://www.wolterskluwer.com/en/expert-insights/nursing-fac... Compensation helps, but having to do much more work with less people increases burnout regardless of how much you're being p…

Appreciate the link, it was an informative read. Based off what I read there, I don't think reducing burden on nurses to prevent burnout at any cost is the right response here. The article makes clear there are two pipelines here: Nursing student applicants -> Nursing students -> Nurses, and Nurses -> Nursing faculty There are more qualified applicants than can be accepted as students due in part to shortages in the…

I agree, it's not the most significant factor. It would affect those close to retiring anyway. A bigger one is compensation. The reduction of funding of universities in the United States, and resulting loan cost, has made working towards a post-graduate degree very undesirable. Hospitals often cover the cost of working towards a degree, but if you are doing that you're more likely to become a nurse practitioner. Right now, working as a traveling nurse is extremely well-compensated. I had meant this article as just an introduction to the concept, you're right about the pipeline.

EDIT: Another thing is that nurses often go through 'preceptorships,' which is like a residency but much more focused and shorter in duration. It is how you accumulate a great deal of the clinical hours required by a Board of Nursing. It was difficult during my preceptorship to find people trained to be preceptors, as experienced nurses are dropping out. The difference between a green instructor and an expreienced one can be massive.

Re: The case against masks at school

#782

Post by wallacoloo »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #684
wallacoloo wrote: post #675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have little empathy for them, however: I want this pandemic to be over, and they are getting in the way of that. funny, because most everyone i know wants this too, and it’s always “the other side” which prevents the pandemic from “being over”. from a person standing in the middle, it appears that it’s the divide which blocks this, whereas from deep behind lines i guess it looks like everyone past that divide is…

> funny, because most everyone i know wants this too, and it’s always “the other side” which prevents the pandemic from “being over”. Yes, that's true. The anti-vaxxers think the vaccines will kill them or make them sterile, or something...it is really hard to keep track of what their current theory is. Again, it's a free shot you can get at the pharmacy, the only rational reason for avoiding it is if you thought it…

> The anti-vaxxers think the vaccines will kill them or make them sterile, or something...it is really hard to keep track of what their current theory is. Again, it's a free shot you can get at the pharmacy, the only rational reason for avoiding it is [..]

in one sentence, you admit that you don't understand what knowledge some person is operating with. in the next sentence, you claim to know what is rational for that person to do. if you're using "rational" in the literal sense, then you've leapt to premature conclusions.

and i get it. it's exasperating. there's a bunch of people who don't want to take a vaccine. and from the outside it seems that as more information becomes available to this group, their vocalized reason for avoiding the vaccine changes. they're being dishonest, and that's infuriating!

if this is what you're seeing, it doesn't necessarily mean every individual within that group is shifting their story. some certainly are, but many aren't and the group behavior can be explained by things similar to "evaporative cooling": some people leave the group as a result of new information (new people are still getting vaccinated, every day), and the people left behind are the ones for which the previously dominant argument wasn't their primary reason for not getting the vaccine -- and so the dominant argument of the group then changes.

group dynamics encapsulate way more complexity than just that one effect. and i think it's worth considering. you see that your own individual behavior is way more consistent than the other side's behavior -- and it is. but that's comparing an individual (yourself) to a group (anti-vaxxers). it's apples to oranges. the other individuals aren't seeing your individual behavior. they're seeing your group's behavior. they're seeing the exact same type of inconsistent and contradictory behavior that you're so fed up with.

what's the way out? well, we haven't found it, so it's hard to say for sure. but i think it has to involve empathy: seeing beyond the group, and relating to each other as individuals.

Re: The case against masks at school

#783

Post by throwawaythekey »

watersb wrote: post #510
colpabar wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Gosh, it's like vaccines work and that's the way out of this. You know, I see snarky little comments like this becoming more and more common on this site, and I'd just like to point out that they are not helpful in any way. Who is it directed towards? Do you think you are convincing anyone , or encouraging a productive discussion? I'd be willing to bet that the overwhelming majority of people on this website are va…

I actually want to hear good reasons for avoiding vaccinations, because many people care a lot about that. I can understand immuno-compromised people, an underlying medical condition, for whom a vaccine may not work or may be dangerous. Undergoing chemotherapy treatment for cancer? Got it: vaccines won't help you (or anyone else) until you can get past the cancer. I don't agree with an argument from stand-my-ground,…

Just today Sweden's health agency advised against the vaccine for kids

> STOCKHOLM, Jan 27 (Reuters) - Sweden has decided against recommending COVID vaccines for kids aged 5-11, the Health Agency said on Thursday, arguing that the benefits did not outweigh the risks.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/sweden-decides-against-...

I'm not super well versed in the science but it seems like reasonable parties advise against vaccination in certain scenarios. Also knowing that government bodies are more likely to prioritize group outcomes over individual outcomes it seems reasonable for individuals to be skeptical.

Re: The case against masks at school

#784

Post by jtbayly »

monksy wrote: post #765
jtbayly wrote: post #737

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what happens if you fail 50% of the students for 3 years in a row? It turns into a disaster.

You come up with a plan to identify the problem, you find a way to tutor them, etc. There are many ways to help those who want to be helped. If they don't want to be helped.. well that's not a new problem.

Here’s a plan. We could come up with a place where we could teach them. And hire people to teach them. Let them go back to school.

I don’t know what you call a person that thinks half of the population are Karens, but it’s absurd.

Re: The case against masks at school

#785

Post by xyzzyz »

sleepybrett wrote: post #568
gherkinnn wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. At some point you've got to ask if these measures are worth living for. It's winter in the northern hemisphere. It'd dark and it's cold. Keeping people locked up at home for a third season is absurd.

I live in seattle. It's dark and cold. Hell the mask helps, it's great for keeping my face warm. I don't consider myself locked up. I miss in person game nights the most, i miss dinner with friends (in a private home or restaurant) somewhat. We do gamenights online using videochat and products like roll20 and boardgame arena. It's not super awesome but it works for us for now. I leave the house, go on walks go shoppi…

Seattle is sunnier and warmer than most of Europe.

Re: The case against masks at school

#786

Post by edmcnulty101 »

taylodl wrote: post #304

General observation from reading the comments - the folks on HN must not have many friends working in medicine for if they had they'd realize those friends are swamped and burned-out. They'd also know that pretty much the only condition we're treating nowadays is Covid. Surgeries are continuing to be postponed - including surgeries that can lead to worse problems down the road such as removing cancerous tumors. And i…

So many inaccuracies.

ICU's are not overflowing. They run at an 80 to 90 percent capacity in general.

Flattening the curve has been a news media myth for YEARS now that has never come true.

Here's actual ICU data around the U.S. They all run high because they ALWAYS HAVE.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/9443799...

More medical professionals are being fired for not getting the vaccine than retiring.

People weren't having kids BEFORE COVID.

On a geological time scale the earth temperature is not even close to the hottest it's ever been.

It's a gish gallop of unfounded liberal news media talking points.

Re: The case against masks at school

#787

Post by throwawaythekey »

AnthonBerg wrote: post #633
jimmyjazz14 wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I don't think they are really saying that they absolutely don't work but that the evidence that they do is weak enough to justify removing the mandates. They address N95 mask in the article (did you read it) pointing out that they are more difficult to breath in and hinder communication more (I'll add my own point in that they are harder to keep a seal with which seems to be quite important according to the stud…

N95 masks are not at all difficult to breathe in in my experience. Not at all.

> N95 masks are not at all difficult to breathe in in my experience. Not at all.

My default assumption would be that if the mask doesn't make it more difficult to breathe then it is unlikely to be effective. The filtration mechanism should introduce friction which you then have to compensate for with additional pressure in your lungs.

Re: The case against masks at school

#788

Post by shadowofneptune »

JPKab wrote: post #727
taylodl wrote: post #304

General observation from reading the comments - the folks on HN must not have many friends working in medicine for if they had they'd realize those friends are swamped and burned-out. They'd also know that pretty much the only condition we're treating nowadays is Covid. Surgeries are continuing to be postponed - including surgeries that can lead to worse problems down the road such as removing cancerous tumors. And i…

General observation from reading YOUR comment - you must not have young kids at a key developmental age in primary school for if you did you'd realize how detrimental arbitrary, poorly-fitting, non-medical masks are to small children's ability to learn to speak, read other's emotions, and other crucial milestones. It's an uncontrolled experiment that was launched, without any regard for potential negative consequence…

Less than 20 years—what is 20 to you? That's a generation's worth of time to live, love, have grandchildren; enjoy retirement. People of that age with Covid-19 are often nowhere near the point where hospice is recommended. Would you expect the treatment you prescribe?

In any case, we're seeing a surge in cases where the young are facing hospitalizations https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/07/health/covid-children-hos.... When I trained at a country hospital, it was overwhelmingly people under 50 being hospitalized for COVID-19. Children are at risk and we shouldn't think like it's spring of 2020 anymore.

Re: The case against masks at school

#789

Post by TameAntelope »

jimmyjazz14 wrote: post #736
TameAntelope wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too many confounding variables, those measurements are useless.

okay, then please by all means, cite a source showing definitively that mask themselves reduce the likelihood of a children dying from covid.

I already have, all over this thread.
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