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Myocarditis Cases Reported After mRNA-Based Covid-19 Vaccination

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Re: Myocarditis Cases Reported After mRNA-Based Covid-19 Vaccination

#71

Post by brandon272 »

newbamboo wrote: post #69
brandon272 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my larger extended family, we are also vaccinated "to the max". None of us have gotten it. These anecdotes don't mean a lot.

Anecdotes become data at large n sizes. :) Also, if you’re theoretically vaccinated, wouldn’t that mean you don’t display symptoms if you contract the virus? Your family may have gotten omicron but the vaxx was effective and so you didn’t get sick enough to notice. That’s what the expert consensus, viz that the vaxx is effective, would predict, right?

Yes, the potential exists that some or all of us have had covid cases that were completely asymptomatic because we were vaccinated… which then just speaks to the miraculous effectiveness of these vaccines.

Re: Myocarditis Cases Reported After mRNA-Based Covid-19 Vaccination

#72

Post by stjohnswarts »

Good I'm glad they were able to share the risk was minimal and line with previous discussions on the matter. I'm sure that Fox News will turn this into a complete fail for medical science and NOT report the comparitive death rate of people who are completely unvaxxed.

Re: Myocarditis Cases Reported After mRNA-Based Covid-19 Vaccination

#73

Post by basch »

MockObject wrote: post #61
basch wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The spike is not attached to the virus, it's produced by the virus. In both the mrna and viral vector vaccines, the mrna and virus are the DELIVERY mechanism of the payload.

Spike proteins are found on the surface of the virus particles. They aren't released by the virus as some sort of pollutant.

The instructions for producing the spike protein are released by the virus. Your body produces the spike protein, just like with an mrna vaccine. The difference between the vaccines is the delivery method of the instructions (spike recipes.)

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/i...

"In this type of vaccine, genetic material from the COVID-19 virus is placed in a modified version of a different virus (viral vector). When the viral vector gets into your cells, it delivers genetic material from the COVID-19 virus that gives your cells instructions to make copies of the S protein. Once your cells display the S proteins on their surfaces, your immune system responds by creating antibodies and defensive white blood cells."

https://www.gavi.org/vaccineswork/there-are-four-types-covid...

"Viral vector vaccines also work by giving cells genetic instructions to produce antigens. But they differ from nucleic acid vaccines in that they use a harmless virus, different from the one the vaccine is targeting, to deliver these instructions into the cell. One type of virus that has often been used as a vector is adenovirus, which causes the common cold. As with nucleic acid vaccines, our own cellular machinery is hijacked to produce the antigen from those instructions, in order to trigger an immune response."

https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/how-you-make-adeno...

"The adenovirus goes in and does its normal infection route; all that machinery is intact.. But in this case, the DNA payload that's delivered into your cells is not a big set of instructions for making more adenoviruses, it's a much shorter sequence that codes for the coronavirus spike protein instead. So the modified DNA gets transcribed to messenger RNA in your cells (and that's the exact step that the mRNA vaccines jump in at if you take them), and this mRNA is taken up by ribosomes and translated into the Spike protein itself."

https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/coronavirus-vaccin...

"This class uses some other infectious virus, but with its original genetic material removed. In its place goes genetic instructions to make coronavirus proteins, and when your infected cells do that, these proteins will set off an immune response. Note that this is different than being infected with a “real” virus, whose instructions are (naturally enough) to produce more virus, which go off and infect more cells. No, in this case each viral particle that you’re injected with will be able to infect one cell, and that’s it. "

The virus pollutes the body with spike protein recipes. There are absolutely not spike proteins on the surface of the vector virus.

Re: Myocarditis Cases Reported After mRNA-Based Covid-19 Vaccination

#74

Post by lern_too_spel »

peteradio wrote: post #67
lern_too_spel wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That statement is still true if you split by those who have had Covid and those who haven't. In both groups, those who have been vaccinated are less likely to get symptomatic covid.

According to which study? During Delta it did not appear to be significant difference.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e1.htm?s_cid=mm...

"rates among unvaccinated persons with a previous COVID-19 diagnosis were 29-fold lower (95% CI = 25.0–33.1) than rates among unvaccinated persons without a previous COVID-19 diagnosis in California and 14.7-fold lower (95% CI = 12.6–16.9) in New York. Rates among vaccinated persons who had had COVID-19 were 32.5-fold lower (95% CI = 27.5–37.6) than rates among unvaccinated persons without a previous COVID-19 diagnosis in California and 19.8-fold lower (95% CI = 16.2–23.5) in New York."

Asking for a "significant" difference is just using weasel words to note that each individual post-Delta study is not powered to detect a difference with those very small slices and no metanalysis having been completed yet. Every single study has shown a point estimate difference that is consistent with vaccination conferring additional protection on those who have previously recovered.

Re: Myocarditis Cases Reported After mRNA-Based Covid-19 Vaccination

#75

Post by kaczordon »

Tagbert wrote: post #62
kaczordon wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What this study does show is that with a booster shot you are offered significant immunity against COVID, including omicron. The confidence interval is between 10%-60% for the booster, oddly selective of you to pick the highest number. The FDA standard is to have at least 50% VE, with lower bound CI >30% for EUA. What this study does show is that immunity is trending down and will likely hit 0 within a few months onc…

From the Nature article “We esti- mated an extra two (95% confidence interval (CI) 0, 3), one (95% CI 0, 2) and six (95% CI 2, 8) myocarditis events per 1 million people vaccinated with ChAdOx1, BNT162b2 and mRNA-1273, respectively, in the 28 days following a first dose and an extra ten (95% CI 7, 11) myocarditis events per 1 million vaccinated in the 28 days after a second dose of mRNA-1273. This compares with an ex…

but the increase was still less than the increase from the virus.

Incorrect, you can clearly see from figure 2 on page 11 that the second dose of Moderna had a higher risk than the virus. Is there a reason you omit this?

That increase in myocarditis from vaccines was only present in men under 40

The paper doesn’t contain a breakdown in the sex difference. This was for men and women.

The authors have an updated pre-print that breaks it down by sex and both Pfizer and Moderna had higher rates than the virus for men(page 13): https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.23.21268276v...

If the authors fixed the denominator for viral infection (i.e. used sero-prevalance), it would look even worse.

Re: Myocarditis Cases Reported After mRNA-Based Covid-19 Vaccination

#76

Post by kaczordon »

brandon272 wrote: post #66
kaczordon wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What this study does show is that with a booster shot you are offered significant immunity against COVID, including omicron. The confidence interval is between 10%-60% for the booster, oddly selective of you to pick the highest number. The FDA standard is to have at least 50% VE, with lower bound CI >30% for EUA. What this study does show is that immunity is trending down and will likely hit 0 within a few months onc…

> In addition to this it is well known now that for men under 40 the risk of myocarditis from the vaccine outweighs the risk from the virus Absolutely false as noted by the other reply to this comment.

Absolutely false as noted by the other reply to this comment.

Don’t just blindly trust someone else’s comment.

You can clearly see from figure 2 on page 11 that the second dose of Moderna has a higher risk than the virus. The updated preprint also shows this for Pfizer.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01630-0.pdf

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.23.21268276v... (page 13)

My other point on vaccine effectiveness against omicron stands as well.

Re: Myocarditis Cases Reported After mRNA-Based Covid-19 Vaccination

#77

Post by peteradio »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #74
peteradio wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to which study? During Delta it did not appear to be significant difference.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e1.htm?s_cid=mm... "rates among unvaccinated persons with a previous COVID-19 diagnosis were 29-fold lower (95% CI = 25.0–33.1) than rates among unvaccinated persons without a previous COVID-19 diagnosis in California and 14.7-fold lower (95% CI = 12.6–16.9) in New York. Rates among vaccinated persons who had had COVID-19 were 32.5-fold lower (95% CI = 27.5–37.6) than rate…

I'm using the term correctly and whether the numbers combine to indicate technical statistical difference won't impact that small difference, it would just reduce the error bars. Taking new york high end vaccine effectiveness 23.5x and worst case natural immunity 12.6x you reduce your hazard ratio by factor of 2. That is absolute worst case for natural immunity and best case for vaccine. It will be a lot closer to 1 perhaps 1.2x. Now compare that to you worst case baseline reduction of 12.6x already and how much more do you have to gain? Are you for all practical purposes protected enough?

Re: Myocarditis Cases Reported After mRNA-Based Covid-19 Vaccination

#78

Post by Bancakes »

assbuttbuttass wrote: post #2

It's important to mention that catching COVID also causes myocarditis https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7035e5.htm Edit: this article says out of 192 405 448 people, 1626 had myocarditis, or about 0.0008%. In contrast, the CDC estimates COVID has a 0.146% chance to give you myocarditis.

You will get the jab but for being symptomatic with covid, that's already a small chance. 5% * 0.146% ~~ 0.007

Re: Myocarditis Cases Reported After mRNA-Based Covid-19 Vaccination

#79

Post by Jansen312 »

wusher wrote: post #16
assbuttbuttass wrote: post #2

It's important to mention that catching COVID also causes myocarditis https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7035e5.htm Edit: this article says out of 192 405 448 people, 1626 had myocarditis, or about 0.0008%. In contrast, the CDC estimates COVID has a 0.146% chance to give you myocarditis.

I don't have the numbers to answer this but which groups are getting myocarditis also matters. If covid causes myocarditis in 1 out of 100 people in an age group prone to myocarditis, but mRNA causes myocarditis in 15 out of 1000 people in an age group that doesn't get myocarditis, then then we should be very concerned about the mRNA myocarditis and adjust our policies accordingly. Again, I made up those numbers and…

Currently, worldwide is still at "promoting vaccines at all cost because Covid is worse than Black Death". So doubt these research results would be freely allowed to get published or supported. China now only doing trials on mRNA (many countries stopped using their non-mRNA vaccines). India hasn't fully vaccinated their people yet. Large part of Africa is even worst situation. So at least 2-3 billions people havn't exposed fully to mRNA benefits or negative effects. Take dengue vaccine that was shelved in Philipines which requires multi years to see its side effects. We are now just entering year 2 or mRNA. Give it 10 years to know "acceptably" mRNA vaccine increases unnecessary risks of heart-related problems. If you know personally doctors working in vaccines research field you probably will know the negatives better. Many doctors scared to even mentioned these negatives for fear of retaliations (this is worlwide phenomena right now). There is a reason FDA needs 75 years to disclose mRNA vaccine related papers. There is also a reason why all statistics on negatives effect of vaccines is so few. Try mention any of those on Youtube or Facebook now and you'll almost instantly get retaliation as anti-vaxxers.

Re: Myocarditis Cases Reported After mRNA-Based Covid-19 Vaccination

#80

Post by nojokes »

gkfasdfasdf wrote: post #64
tchalla wrote: post #4

> To be clear: whoever gets heart inflammation from Moderna would’ve almost certainly got it worse from Covid. The issue arises from the spike protein itself. That’s why we don’t see myocarditis from non-MRNA vaccines like Astra Zeneca. https://twitter.com/joshzepps/status/1486213480823017472?s=2... Edit : Consider readied the entire Twitter thread. https://www.abc.net.au/radio/sydney/programs/afternoons/myoc... > It…

Re: question of why the spike protein from mRNA vaccines shows increased risk of heart inflammation vs AZ vaccine, I listened to the entire interview with Raj Puranik [0], and it's still not clear to me why. He said comparing side-effect profiles of different vaccines is challenging because the dosage and delivery are so different. I.e. mRNA is given over 3 weeks while AZ is given over months. [0]: https://abcmedia.a…

If it was just reaction to the spike protein then why is myocarditis more likely on the second vaccination?

I think it is therefore more likely that adaptive immune system is involved because it has ability to remember.

Now is it possible that spike protein itself or lipid shell is causing this based on indicence rate differences between 3 vaccines?

Hard to say.

The amount of spike protein produced is in correlation with amount of mRNA entering cells. The amount of mRNA entering cells is 3x higher with Moderna vaccine than with Pfizer vaccine and it appears that it is similar on both shots (first and second). But the amount of mRNA (converted from adenovirus DNA) entering cells with the second AZ shot is probably lower than on the first shot because there is also some immunity against the adenovirus and the dose size is the same.

This is in correlation with the amount of antibodies produced by these vaccines.

This is the not contradicting with the observation so far.

But it could be also lipid cell that has been found to cause inflammation. Considering the high amount of antibodies generated on the second vaccination, it is plausible that the lipid shells are not attacked by the immune system directly. But it might be possible that the cells are attacked after lipid shells have merged with their membranes.

There are few ways to find how what is most likely happening.

First is to hope that protein based vaccine from Novavax will be used by meaningful amount to detect proper incidence rates. When it is spike protein itself then we should see also high incidence rate on second vaccination.

The second option is to analyze mixed vaccinations where first vaccination was done with adenovirus vaccine and the second one with mRNA vaccine. It is not perfect setup but it might provide some additional information.

Third option is to use a mouse model similar to one in previous study where mouse were intravenously injected with mRNA vaccines. Repeat the study with mRNA vaccine, placebo (saline solution), dummy lipid shells and protein vaccines (might be necessary to do the study without and with the adjuvant).

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