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The case against masks at school

theatlantic.com

341–350 of 1001 posts

Re: The case against masks at school

#341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and all the halfway measures we've taken haven't achieved their stated goals. You have some good points up until this one. Go to your local hospital and ask them how they'd like it if their case load went up by 2x due to a lack of "halfway measures." In some places, that will be OK, while in others, it will be utterly catastrophic. Obviously that doesn't justify ridiculous overreactions to unmasked toddlers, as you p…

According to the article, in the only large randomized studies that have been performed, masking showed little, if any benefit. As far as I'm aware, most studies, including WHO, show that lockdowns were counter productive, and could result in increased transmission. I haven't seen a single study that showed school closures resulted in any decrease in transmission, or provided any benefit. I have seen many that showed…

> According to the article, in the only large randomized studies that have been performed, masking showed little, if any benefit.

From the first one [1] they linked:

> odds ratio, 0.82 [CI, 0.54 to 1.23] … Although the difference observed was not statistically significant, the 95% CIs are compatible with a 46% reduction to a 23% increase in infection. …

Sounds like the issue is lack of statistical power. We basically can't conclude much at all from that study, but taken "at face value", that was an ~18% reduction in transmission. Presumably this would compound if done for longer or among more people due to exponential spread.

Compound an 18% reduction for three generations (about ~15 days) of viral spread and that's about a 45% reduction in case load. Of course it's more complicated than that because a faster-spreading virus will also reach saturation of the susceptible population more quickly, but it does mean lowering peak hospital load, as well as lowering R_0 which means the point of saturation is smaller, etc.

From the second one [2] they linked:

> Proper mask-wearing increased from 13.3% in the control group to 42.3% in the intervention arm (adjusted percentage point difference = 0.29 [0.26, 0.31]). The intervention reduced symptomatic seroprevalence (adjusted prevalence ratio (aPR) = 0.91 [0.82, 1.00])

So that's a 9% reduction (again, with a wide confidence interval), as a result of increasing mask usage by only 29 percentage points. So if the signal's real, then presumably increasing mask usage further, say up to 85%, would add a very meaningful further reduction.

Again, we can assume that would compound if done for longer or among a larger population.

**

Furthermore, there have been plenty of lab experiments on masks which show them to be effective at filtering water droplet-bound Covid particles. And Covid is not the first virus we've ever encountered. In the absence of lots of data specific to Covid, we can apply background scientific knowledge about the effectiveness of masks in slowing the spread of respiratory disease.

There are also costs to wearing masks, as well as to mask mandates, which I'm not taking into account in this post. But I wouldn't characterize the evidence as you have.

**

[1] https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/full/10.7326/M20-6817

[2] https://www.poverty-action.org/publication/impact-community-...

Re: The case against masks at school

#342
post #338

General observation from reading the comments - the folks on HN must not have many friends working in medicine for if they had they'd realize those friends are swamped and burned-out. They'd also know that pretty much the only condition we're treating nowadays is Covid. Surgeries are continuing to be postponed - including surgeries that can lead to worse problems down the road such as removing cancerous tumors. And i…

> And it gets worse. My daughter is in pre-med. Apparently people are dropping out like flies and not just because of the course load. They're watching how medical professionals are being treated and saying screw it! This should concern us all because we've had a marked uptick of medical professionals retiring/resigning since the pandemic started and now the pipeline is thinning out. You should be angry at corporate…

It’s only increasing due to immigration, if I’m reading this correctly.

https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publicatio...

Re: The case against masks at school

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and all the halfway measures we've taken haven't achieved their stated goals. You have some good points up until this one. Go to your local hospital and ask them how they'd like it if their case load went up by 2x due to a lack of "halfway measures." In some places, that will be OK, while in others, it will be utterly catastrophic. Obviously that doesn't justify ridiculous overreactions to unmasked toddlers, as you p…

According to the article, in the only large randomized studies that have been performed, masking showed little, if any benefit. As far as I'm aware, most studies, including WHO, show that lockdowns were counter productive, and could result in increased transmission. I haven't seen a single study that showed school closures resulted in any decrease in transmission, or provided any benefit. I have seen many that showed…

> According to the article, in the only large randomized studies that have been performed, masking showed little, if any benefit.

I have this open in another tab. It links to three studies that show masks in school do work:

https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/mask-requirem...

> most studies, including WHO, show that lockdowns were counter productive, and could result in increased transmission.

Do you have a source for this?

Re: The case against masks at school

#345
post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't really true, regardless of whether you like masks or not. There have been one or two level changes with respect to how much risk you're introducing to those around you as well as the personal accountability of those you'd affect. It's not surprising that different people have different tolerances for these risks. Even without the above factored in, this is sort of like saying that not using your turn signa…

It's not about individual risk, it's about collective risk, and honestly it's quite selfish to consider the COVID risks only with regard to yourself. And Omicron has made it so the risk profile is effectively the same as when this pandemic started; you will get it, you will be contagious for a time, and you will infect others. By looking at that risk and accepting it, you're throwing away the work you've previously p…

> And Omicron has made it so the risk profile is effectively the same as when this pandemic started; you will get it, you will be contagious for a time, and you will infect others.

Total nonsense. Anyone's chance of dying is massively diminished with the vaccine.

Re: The case against masks at school

#346
post #69

I thought the paragraphs about requiring KN95 in schools were interesting. My kids' school district recently had a policy change that requires everyone to wear KN95 or KF94 masks. What I've noticed is that most kids (including mine) have switched from high quality (Halo) well fitting cloths masks with filters to 95 or 94s with huge gaps around their noses. It is hard to believe that this is an improvement in safety.

I used to use KN95 mask for sanding projects but they never worked because only after a short period I almost always ended up with a gap that allowed a lot of sanding dust (which I assume is a large particle than a virus) in causing me to have headaches all day. So I don't have a whole lot of faith that KN95s are much better (at least over long term wear).

Re: The case against masks at school

#347
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

don't forget a high likelyhood of being irradiated

Not that I like the millimeter wave scanners, but like the metal detectors I think they use low-energy non-ionizing radiation, so its not really a change in the kind or significance of radiation exposure.

Conventional metal detectors use electromagnets and don't emit any ionizing radiation. Backscatter scanners used in airport security screening do emit ionizing radiation but a very small amount.

https://www.epa.gov/radtown/radiation-and-airport-security-s...

Re: The case against masks at school

#348
post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wearing masks whenever possible doesn't bother me in the slightest. I've been loving it that COVID has normalized wearing a mask in public because I'd like to do it all the time for the rest of my life without being judged for it. But I don't want anybody mandating it. I've been trying to work out in my own mind why I switched to being more, uh, 'deontologist' if you will, several years ago. I'm just starting to almo…

> Americans debating every day whether strongly authoritarian and invasive measures are OK, if they save lives. In Europe seatbelts are mandatory, and it is forbidden to smoke in most places. I think that these are reasonable measures. I think, for the exact same reasons, that mask mandates are reasonable. In public transport is mandatory to wear at least a t-shirt, as skin to skin contact gets unhealthy fast. And re…

In Europe belts are mandatory

I'm having a hard time understanding this one... Are you literally saying that belts that hold people's pants up are mandatory?

Re: The case against masks at school

#349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the article, in the only large randomized studies that have been performed, masking showed little, if any benefit. As far as I'm aware, most studies, including WHO, show that lockdowns were counter productive, and could result in increased transmission. I haven't seen a single study that showed school closures resulted in any decrease in transmission, or provided any benefit. I have seen many that showed…

> According to the article, in the only large randomized studies that have been performed, masking showed little, if any benefit. From the first one [1] they linked: > odds ratio, 0.82 [CI, 0.54 to 1.23] … Although the difference observed was not statistically significant, the 95% CIs are compatible with a 46% reduction to a 23% increase in infection. … Sounds like the issue is lack of statistical power. We basically…

I agree that we interpret the results of those studies very differently.

I'd also suggest that we only regard lab studies with a bit of intellectual curiosity, rather than a meaningful focus. Lab studies are very different than the real world where my son trades his batman mask for a friend's spiderman mask because it's cooler :D

Re: The case against masks at school

#350
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of masking and being cautious at this point is not to avoid ever catching COVID, because it seems certain now that everyone will catch it at some point. The point is to be the last person to catch it when hospitals are at normal capacity and everything else is back to normal, just in case you happen to have a very poor reaction to it. It also just sounds kind of miserable. I also avoid catching the flu as m…

In this post-vaccine world we now live in, is slowing the spread of Covid really the absolute most important thing we all need to focus on? Shouldn’t we move on at this point? What is the end goal here? Why are fully vaccinated adults continuing to freak out about Covid?

I'm not freaking out. I'm just trying to avoid getting myself and my family sick. Who likes being sick? I'm not living in some underground bunker, just taking basic precautions. It's the same reason I buckle my seatbelt: huge potential upside with negligible downside. So worst case scenario, I accidentally wore a mask I didn't need to wear. Oh no.

I have no reason to believe COIVD would be bad for me. But what if it is? Then I'd rather get sick when things have calmed down and hospitals are at normal capacity.

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