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The case against masks at school

theatlantic.com

291–300 of 1001 posts

Re: The case against masks at school

#291

The case against masks is quite trivial and generalizable across most industries. Today, a teacher now has two realistic options: a) self-isolate indefinitely, either teaching remotely or quitting their job b) contract coronavirus at some point Given that, masks are an irrelevance. A teacher who is clinically vulnerable and unwilling to roll the dice is left only with the option to quit their job, regardless of wheth…

I still wear my mask to slow the transmission of covid so that less vulnerable people die, and so that our hospitals can stop being overrun.

I also personally think of this as well: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/27/health/coronavirus-mask-p...

Masking may reduce the severity of your covid infection, which would be pretty sweet.

So it's not an all or nothing.

Re: The case against masks at school

#292

The article is right that generic "masks" don't work well enough to see the effect. But N95 respirator masks do and we should all be wearing them if indoors in public for long periods. Well fit N95 (or better) respirators are needed in schools. Not just "masks". Unfortunately this does imply that very young children cannot be effectively masked because they will seriously degrade the protection by not maintining fit…

There's no such thing as a child-sized N95 because N95 is an occupational standard, not a general population standard like KF94.

Re: The case against masks at school

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, sorry for not being more clear, but I wasn't talking about that person, or the piano, or about the odds of someone contracting COVID from surfaces. I was using the quote to illustrate what I see as a difficult pair of values to balance that situations like masks in classrooms, or other shared-space restrictions, really throw into painfully high relief: how do we collectively, as a society, balance our own perso…

In the case of the piano, it's very simple: anyone who is worried about catching Covid by listening to the piano is free to not listen to the piano. There's really nothing to balance.

Solid, got it. Next time I talk to criddell's kids' university's dorm administrators, I'll try to set them straight. Hopefully they'll be able to zoom out a bit from whatever conversation-impairing details they've latched onto.

Re: The case against masks at school

#294
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funnily enough, I've seen many people riding bikes in the street with no helmet, but wearing a cloth mask.

I've found myself leaving them on on the walk back to the car a whole lot more now that it's Winter. Zero extra safety, but it keeps the face warm.

I was already regularly wearing masks in the winter before the pandemic for the same reason, it kept my face nice and warm. Of course it was cloth masks, not N95. But I did wear N95 when the air quality was especially bad.

Re: The case against masks at school

#295

Funny to watch the Atlantic change directions on COVID over the last few months. I go back and forth on masks. In general I find them to be a minor inconvenience, although I believe they're more inconvenient for me than most because I'm blind and no matter what I do they always fog up my glasses. But while masks themselves are mildly inconvenient, harsh mask mandates and restrictions become much more of an annoyance…

and all the halfway measures we've taken haven't achieved their stated goals. You have some good points up until this one. Go to your local hospital and ask them how they'd like it if their case load went up by 2x due to a lack of "halfway measures." In some places, that will be OK, while in others, it will be utterly catastrophic. Obviously that doesn't justify ridiculous overreactions to unmasked toddlers, as you p…

According to the article, in the only large randomized studies that have been performed, masking showed little, if any benefit.

As far as I'm aware, most studies, including WHO, show that lockdowns were counter productive, and could result in increased transmission.

I haven't seen a single study that showed school closures resulted in any decrease in transmission, or provided any benefit. I have seen many that showed the harms it imposed, though.

These measures were ineffective. So, how do you justify saying that a hospital's case load would increase by 2X if we got rid of them, or had never done them?

Re: The case against masks at school

#296
post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am double vaxed+boosted, and I still wear a mask everywhere I'm required to which includes still going to the gym 3-4 times a week. My gym has gone back and forth between masks being required or not with the case count. I know I've read everything about airflow being fine, and there being no reduced oxygen intake, but having worked out with and without a mask depending on location in the past 2 years I can attest a…

As an aside, have you noticed any improvements from training with a mask on? Is it like how runners might train at high altitude, so when you come back to normal levels you are more efficient?

The only thing I could say is I have improved some at working out with a mask on, but it's still noticeable by a large margin more difficult to recover my breath/energy than without.

I don't think I've generally seen that transfer over to performance without one though.

Re: The case against masks at school

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost / benefit to vaccinating kids is extremely suspect. Ireland has 1 million children aged 0-14. 1 has died of Covid this entire time. One. So we need to vaccinate them all every year to maybe prevent half an annual death? No way does that make sense from a cost/benefit perspective (unless you're a Pfizer shareholder). "But those kids can spread it to their triple- and quadruple vaccinated grandparents!" - What…

It seems like you're dismissing the reality of small children spreading Covid to more vulnerable populations. My daughter who is 3 and thus unvaccinated, caught Omicron at daycare. Unfortunately the parents of the child who was spreading it, neglected to inform the daycare that the child was positive. Because of this, we unknowingly spread it to my 81 year old mother in law. This was around Christmas and although she…

I'm glad your MIL is okay. Are you sure she only got ill because we didn't vaccinate every 3 year old?

Say all those children had been vaccinated, all of them, before daycare started. They'd have gotten a shot or two to be ready for August.

In all likelihood, that wouldn't have done much to protect them from Omicron in December. Omicron featured 32 mutations on the spike protein alone, and previous 'vaccines' delivered only 4 months ago offer "very limited protection".

Repeated mass vaccination, of entire generations of children, to protect already vaccinated grandparents - man, that's going very far. There are many possible unforeseen health consequences to such action - and the lengths to which you'd have to go to get every parent to comply are very fucking far indeed.

Re: The case against masks at school

#298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The north star for most countries and cities has always been cases over hospitalizations or deaths. With vaccine intake high in most developed countries a covid infection is like a cold or a bad flu for some. I think the time has come to rethink this goal of cases being a metric to shut down everything and let society return to some sense of normalcy while still maintaining a safety mandate for those with special con…

Sounds like you are on a path to awakening so I don't want to discourage you, but it might be worth sharing additional data and context to parts of your comment. >With vaccine intake high in most developed countries a covid infection is like a cold or a bad flu for some. That may be more driven by the mildness of Omicron than it is by the protective effect of the vaccine. For example, the latest data show that vaccin…

> One source (14 per 100k vs 10 per 100k):

Please do not cherry-pick data that has hidden confounding variables. The data DOES NOT SHOW that vaccinated (but not boosted) are getting sick and dying at higher rates than unvaccinated. You are being severely misleading with your statements as “facts”.

Most importantly “In the last week from 08 January 2022 to 14 January 2022, in an age-standardised population, the COVID-19 related death rate in individuals that received a booster or third dose of a COVID-19 vaccine was between 3.2 to 9.4 times lower than individuals who are unvaccinated or have only received one or two doses of a COVID-19 vaccine.”. That directly contradicts your “fact”, and the reason is the simple one that your numbers are not standardised for age i.e. more older people are vaccinated so more vaccinated people die. This should not need to be repeated ad nausium. Pay attention to the facts and please stop misrepresenting the truth.

From page 34 of that report:

“PLEASE READ BEFORE REVIEWING THE FOLLOWING TABLES AND FIGURES There is a large risk of misinterpretation of the data presented in this section due to the complexities of vaccination data. A blog post by the UK Health Security Agency (UKHSA), formerly Public Health England (PHE), provides a comprehensive explanation of the biases and potential areas for misinterpretation of such data. They state that a simple comparison of COVID-19 case rates in those who are vaccinated and unvaccinated should not be used to assess how effective a vaccine is in preventing serious health outcomes, because there are a number of differences between the groups, other than the vaccine itself, and these biases mean that you cannot use the rates to determine how well the vaccines work. Below are examples of some of the complexities and biases that need to be taken into consideration when interpreting these data. This is explained in more detail in our blog on the PHS website.” And from page 35: “There are likely to be systematic differences and biases between the vaccinated and unvaccinated groups, such as behaviour, vulnerability and previous infection, that are unaccounted for when comparing rates. As most of the population is vaccinated, these differences become more evident and could create bias in case/hospitalisation/death rates between vaccinated and unvaccinated population.”

Re: The case against masks at school

#299

Funny to watch the Atlantic change directions on COVID over the last few months. I go back and forth on masks. In general I find them to be a minor inconvenience, although I believe they're more inconvenient for me than most because I'm blind and no matter what I do they always fog up my glasses. But while masks themselves are mildly inconvenient, harsh mask mandates and restrictions become much more of an annoyance…

and all the halfway measures we've taken haven't achieved their stated goals. You have some good points up until this one. Go to your local hospital and ask them how they'd like it if their case load went up by 2x due to a lack of "halfway measures." In some places, that will be OK, while in others, it will be utterly catastrophic. Obviously that doesn't justify ridiculous overreactions to unmasked toddlers, as you p…

> In some places, that will be OK, while in others, it will be utterly catastrophic.

Maybe? But I already live in a place that did away with all COVID restrictions some time ago (not to mention they were never as harsh as elsewhere to begin with), and the situation here is barely worse than places with prohibitive restrictions.

Re: The case against masks at school

#300

Funny to watch the Atlantic change directions on COVID over the last few months. I go back and forth on masks. In general I find them to be a minor inconvenience, although I believe they're more inconvenient for me than most because I'm blind and no matter what I do they always fog up my glasses. But while masks themselves are mildly inconvenient, harsh mask mandates and restrictions become much more of an annoyance…

and all the halfway measures we've taken haven't achieved their stated goals. You have some good points up until this one. Go to your local hospital and ask them how they'd like it if their case load went up by 2x due to a lack of "halfway measures." In some places, that will be OK, while in others, it will be utterly catastrophic. Obviously that doesn't justify ridiculous overreactions to unmasked toddlers, as you p…

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