The case against masks at school • Hacker News Board

Re: The case against masks at school

#241

Post by mcguire » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 7:26 PM UTC

throwaway22032 wrote: post #102

criddell wrote: post #15

My kids attend a university in Canada and live in residence on campus. They have had incredibly strict rules around masking and gatherings. It's clear that they are only considering one variable - number of infections - and it seems like they aren't considering any other factors. For example, in the dorm there is a common area with a piano. Because of COVID, playing that piano is banned. Even if there was a reasonabl…

This is the fundamental issue with coronavirus mitigation measures. There are circumstances in which "drop everything" makes sense - if coronavirus were ten times more fatal, we'd do it naturally. But in general, looking at life from a perspective of "what is the minimum possible quality of life we can have" is depressing and fundamentally incompatible with the human spirit. I tend to think that people who operate in…

You would take that risk, everyone you know will take that risk, everyone they know will take that risk....

Re: The case against masks at school

#242

Post by brimble » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 7:26 PM UTC

TameAntelope wrote: post #239

brimble wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Besides, wearing a mask is not exactly a heavy burden to bear. Yes, it's annoying, but the consequences of not doing so are also annoying, and in more than zero cases deadly. Sure, but tons of things are deadly in a non-zero number of cases, which most people give no thought to. Micromorts are everywhere. I've been baffled at the strong anti-mask reaction and the way so many people've wanted to toss mask mandates a…

There aren't tons of things you do that actively harm others, and when there are those things, they're regulated and compliance is enforced via legislation. Wearing/not wearing a mask is not a heavy burden to bear, and by not doing it, you're increasing the net risk of everyone around you, in addition to your own. That's what makes this different from wearing a helmet 24/7. But you knew that! Why is this the thing we…

I'm having trouble figuring out how you're not advocating for never-ending mask mandates, as long as risk reduction is greater than zero (which it would have been even before Covid). That's how these posts read. Is that what you're in favor of?

Re: The case against masks at school

#243

Post by hammock » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 7:28 PM UTC

ciceryadam wrote: post #217

hammock wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like you are on a path to awakening so I don't want to discourage you, but it might be worth sharing additional data and context to parts of your comment. >With vaccine intake high in most developed countries a covid infection is like a cold or a bad flu for some. That may be more driven by the mildness of Omicron than it is by the protective effect of the vaccine. For example, the latest data show that vaccin…

From December 11 to January 7, 2022, 107 patients died in Scotland who were vaccinated twice. Most of them (more than 95 percent) received the second dose more than six months before their deaths. As many as 96 percent of them "had other health complications that contributed to their deaths," the PHS report said. Their average age was 78.1 years.

Yes, the vaccine effectiveness wanes quite significantly at 6 months.

Most covid deaths, regardless of vaccination status, had other health complications that contributed.

And the average age of covid deaths, regardless of vaccination status, is over 70.

Was there a particular takeaway you were looking to impart?

Re: The case against masks at school

#244

Post by aeternum » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 7:28 PM UTC

docfort wrote: post #96

This argument is poorly constructed. I think there could be better ones, but here’s my problem. It goes through the three CDC studies and correctly observes that they fail to separate regions that have high vaccination rates from schools without a mask mandate. Indeed, the ideal experiment would involve two schools that are otherwise identical in the same geographical area with high vaccination rates: one that has no…

A randomized study was run in Bangladesh. There they handed out masks to randomly selected villages among a pool of 600 villages with similar vaccination and political stances.

That study showed that the effect of surgical masks was statistically significant when used by the elderly 50+ population. For other age groups and for cloth masks, the advantage was statistically insignificant.

All the headlines around this study, including from the CDC were basically 'Masks proven to be effective!', 'masks work!', but that's a very lax definition of effective.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/09/09/masks-rand...

Re: The case against masks at school

#245

Post by DaltonCoffee » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 7:30 PM UTC

tehjoker wrote: post #200

It's going to be darkly funny when all the people that thought infecting kids constantly was a good idea start to have to cope with the social and biological consequences of it for decades.

Curious what you feel the biological consequences of in-school covid transmission will be decades from now.

Re: The case against masks at school

#246

Post by jancsika » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 7:31 PM UTC

throwaway22032 wrote: post #102

criddell wrote: post #15

My kids attend a university in Canada and live in residence on campus. They have had incredibly strict rules around masking and gatherings. It's clear that they are only considering one variable - number of infections - and it seems like they aren't considering any other factors. For example, in the dorm there is a common area with a piano. Because of COVID, playing that piano is banned. Even if there was a reasonabl…

This is the fundamental issue with coronavirus mitigation measures. There are circumstances in which "drop everything" makes sense - if coronavirus were ten times more fatal, we'd do it naturally. But in general, looking at life from a perspective of "what is the minimum possible quality of life we can have" is depressing and fundamentally incompatible with the human spirit. I tend to think that people who operate in…

> I tend to think that people who operate in this way are subhuman, in the genuine sense of the word - they seem more like bureaucratic automatons than living beings with spirits and hopes and dreams.

Quick capsule hypothesis-- you tend toward thinking in a way that results in you having written the word "subhuman" on HN because an active pandemic tends to increase feelings of disgust in the affected population.

Did you consider that possibility?

Edit: wording

Re: The case against masks at school

#247

Post by speg » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 7:33 PM UTC

Jcampuzano2 wrote: post #215

buzzert wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blood-oxygen level is not relevant when it comes to mental well-being. I have the exact same problem as the parent commenter. I've tried exercising with a mask (cloth and surgical), and it feels like getting waterboarded (because the mask inevitably becomes soaked in sweat). It causes a great amount of anxiety for me, and literally feels like torture. I don't care about what lung volume/blood oxygen "studies" say.

I am double vaxed+boosted, and I still wear a mask everywhere I'm required to which includes still going to the gym 3-4 times a week. My gym has gone back and forth between masks being required or not with the case count. I know I've read everything about airflow being fine, and there being no reduced oxygen intake, but having worked out with and without a mask depending on location in the past 2 years I can attest a…

As an aside, have you noticed any improvements from training with a mask on? Is it like how runners might train at high altitude, so when you come back to normal levels you are more efficient?

Re: The case against masks at school

#248

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 7:33 PM UTC

spookthesunset wrote: post #111

throwaway22032 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the fundamental issue with coronavirus mitigation measures. There are circumstances in which "drop everything" makes sense - if coronavirus were ten times more fatal, we'd do it naturally. But in general, looking at life from a perspective of "what is the minimum possible quality of life we can have" is depressing and fundamentally incompatible with the human spirit. I tend to think that people who operate in…

For two years we’ve been asked to park our problems and to act like literally all that matters is the spread of Covid. Nothing else matters. Just a myopic fixation on the spread of one highly infectious respiratory virus. Even a year after vaccines we are still being asked to treat Covid like it is the #1 priority in our lives. More important than our well being, our mental health, our communities, our children, or a…

[deleted]

Re: The case against masks at school

#249

Post by duderific » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 7:34 PM UTC

mandmandam wrote: post #58

Avshalom wrote: post #25

Whether this article means to it makes the case for requiring vaccination instead, which, yeah we should do that.

The cost / benefit to vaccinating kids is extremely suspect. Ireland has 1 million children aged 0-14. 1 has died of Covid this entire time. One. So we need to vaccinate them all every year to maybe prevent half an annual death? No way does that make sense from a cost/benefit perspective (unless you're a Pfizer shareholder). "But those kids can spread it to their triple- and quadruple vaccinated grandparents!" - What…

It seems like you're dismissing the reality of small children spreading Covid to more vulnerable populations.

My daughter who is 3 and thus unvaccinated, caught Omicron at daycare. Unfortunately the parents of the child who was spreading it, neglected to inform the daycare that the child was positive. Because of this, we unknowingly spread it to my 81 year old mother in law. This was around Christmas and although she is ok, it was a little touch and go for a while.

I imagine I'm far from the only person who found themselves in this kind of situation.

Re: The case against masks at school

#250

Post by tombert » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 7:34 PM UTC

aerovistae wrote: post #29

sul_tasto wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

perhaps an unmask would be helpful: https://www.getunmask.com/

Just bought one. Hoping it lives up to its marketing and I can enjoy a flight on an airplane without discomfort. I'm triple-vaccinated and absolutely sick of wearing a mask. I agreed with it for the first 18+ months of this but by now I'm just no longer in favor. I no longer believe covid will eventually "go away" and am certainly not in favor of wearing masks for years to come in the hopes that it does. Those that r…

Everyone in my family (including me) is vaccinated and boosted, but they all (except me somehow) still got COVID during December, with my mom getting especially sick. Fortunately they all recovered and are fine now (I think largely due to the vaccine), but I feel like there exists an alternate universe where my mom dies despite being vaccinated.

Because of this, I don't think the "fuck the unvaccinated, I am sick of masks" mantra works; people can still get pretty sick even after being responsible and getting vaccinated, and I think as a result the mask mandates might need to stay. I don't like them either, but I like people getting sick even less.

NOTE:

Just to be 100% clear: I am very very very much not anti-vax. Please get vaccinated.