The case against masks at school • Hacker News Board

Re: The case against masks at school

#61

Post by rob74 » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 5:18 PM UTC

christkv wrote: post #35

usefulcat wrote: post #19

The article talks a lot about how there's little or no evidence showing benefits of masking for kids, and also talks a lot about the unknown long-term effects of masking on kids. However, as with so many articles trying to make a point or persuade people, it barely mentions at all the unknown long-term effects of covid. I'm willing to be persuaded by evidence, but (for me) any piece that fails to address such an obvi…

If you have small children you know what joke masks are in school. Little kids are not responsible adults. They touch their face, take their masks on and off, exchange them with their friends and even eat them. Pretending that masks on young kids contribute anything to slowing the spread is complete wishful thinking.

Well, if you have elderly parents you will also learn a thing or five about mask-wearing discipline. They will do all of the things above (except maybe eating them). My personal favorite: removing the mask when they have to cough. And even in the in-between age groups, the "responsible adults" are fewer than you might think...

Re: The case against masks at school

#62

Post by sjg007 » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 5:18 PM UTC

teepark wrote: post #41

kart23 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats not what the article is about. The article is showing the lack of evidence for masks at schools. If transmission isn't impacted by masks, then the severity of covid has nothing to do with the decision of whether to require masks or not.

But while it points out that the evidence for masks being effective is scarce, it does little to identify positive evidence that masks are specifically ineffective . So we just don't know as much as CDC's consistent guidelines seem to suggest, and it makes sense to weigh the risk. That the article neglects to frame it in this light highlights the one-sided nature.

There is plenty of evidence that masks work.

Re: The case against masks at school

#63

Post by restingrobot » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 5:18 PM UTC

throwaway22032 wrote: post #21

The case against masks is quite trivial and generalizable across most industries. Today, a teacher now has two realistic options: a) self-isolate indefinitely, either teaching remotely or quitting their job b) contract coronavirus at some point Given that, masks are an irrelevance. A teacher who is clinically vulnerable and unwilling to roll the dice is left only with the option to quit their job, regardless of wheth…

There is inconclusive evidence that children are vectors of transmission to teachers. At the very least it is the same as any public gathering. So your "options" would apply to every aspect of life, (Grocery store, restaurant, etc.)

Re: The case against masks at school

#64

Post by rhino369 » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 5:18 PM UTC

usefulcat wrote: post #19

The article talks a lot about how there's little or no evidence showing benefits of masking for kids, and also talks a lot about the unknown long-term effects of masking on kids. However, as with so many articles trying to make a point or persuade people, it barely mentions at all the unknown long-term effects of covid. I'm willing to be persuaded by evidence, but (for me) any piece that fails to address such an obvi…

If there is little to no evidence that it reduces spread amongst children, the effects of covid on children is irrelevant. You wouldn't say an article shitting on Ivermectin effacy failed to take into account Long COVID.

The article doesn't mention the other uncomfortable truth--every kid is getting covid sooner rather than later regardless of mask mandates. Even if masks are 50% effective at reducing the spread, Omicron variant is more contagious with a mask than the original variant was without one. And there is little reason to believe masks reduce 50% of spread.

Washington DC infection rate 20X'd in a month. Even if you reduce the slope of the curve, the area under it is going to be roughly the same.

Re: The case against masks at school

#65

Post by a9h74j » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 5:18 PM UTC

criddell wrote: post #18

afavour wrote: post #14

In a way it's reassuring that people of all political stripes can at least come together on one point: that the CDC has been asleep at the wheel during most of this pandemic. Hopefully at some point there will be a discussion about how to reform the body to be much more proactive.

I have a mostly positive opinion on the CDC and I wonder if some of the problems are a result of political influence? The WHO and their fight against the idea that COVID is airborne is even more confusing to me. It felt like they didn't even want the idea discussed.

"When science mixes with politics, what you mostly get is politics."

Re: The case against masks at school

#66

Post by gms7777 » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 5:18 PM UTC

dennis_moore wrote: post #44

usefulcat wrote: post #19

The article talks a lot about how there's little or no evidence showing benefits of masking for kids, and also talks a lot about the unknown long-term effects of masking on kids. However, as with so many articles trying to make a point or persuade people, it barely mentions at all the unknown long-term effects of covid. I'm willing to be persuaded by evidence, but (for me) any piece that fails to address such an obvi…

You wouldn't expect an article that talks about the long-term effects of COVID to also address the downsides of mask and restrictions, so why should the opposite be true? You can read independent arguments for both sides of the issue, judge their strengths and weaknesses, and then make up your own mind.

> You wouldn't expect an article that talks about the long-term effects of COVID to also address the downsides of mask and restrictions

The parallel of this example would be an article discussing the evidence for the effectiveness of masking, in which case you would be right -- discussion of long-term effects of COVID wouldn't be necessarily relevant.

But that isn't this article -- this article is discussing policy: should students mask in schools? In which case, weighing the long-term effects of covid is absolutely relevant.

Re: The case against masks at school

#67

Post by kenjackson » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 5:19 PM UTC

usefulcat wrote: post #19

The article talks a lot about how there's little or no evidence showing benefits of masking for kids, and also talks a lot about the unknown long-term effects of masking on kids. However, as with so many articles trying to make a point or persuade people, it barely mentions at all the unknown long-term effects of covid. I'm willing to be persuaded by evidence, but (for me) any piece that fails to address such an obvi…

The article also seems to contradict itself. It notes that there are negatives to mask wearing in terms of lip reading and clarity of voice, but the people in class that talk the most are the teachers, and they seem to show the most benefit from wearing masks. At least at my child's school, children don't have to wear masks at lunch and recess (which are held outside). This is when children mostly communicate with each other.

That said, the most compelling reason to get rid of mask mandates in the school is that they don't work. Kids wear them all over their face. As noted in the article, no one wears good ones, and no one wears them close to correctly. Part of the reason why I suspect we see evidence that teachers masking up is effective while children aren't effective is that teachers are more likely to wear their masks correctly.

Re: The case against masks at school

#68

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 5:19 PM UTC

christkv wrote: post #35

usefulcat wrote: post #19

The article talks a lot about how there's little or no evidence showing benefits of masking for kids, and also talks a lot about the unknown long-term effects of masking on kids. However, as with so many articles trying to make a point or persuade people, it barely mentions at all the unknown long-term effects of covid. I'm willing to be persuaded by evidence, but (for me) any piece that fails to address such an obvi…

If you have small children you know what joke masks are in school. Little kids are not responsible adults. They touch their face, take their masks on and off, exchange them with their friends and even eat them. Pretending that masks on young kids contribute anything to slowing the spread is complete wishful thinking.

[deleted]

Re: The case against masks at school

#69

Post by k2enemy » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 5:20 PM UTC

I thought the paragraphs about requiring KN95 in schools were interesting.

My kids' school district recently had a policy change that requires everyone to wear KN95 or KF94 masks. What I've noticed is that most kids (including mine) have switched from high quality (Halo) well fitting cloths masks with filters to 95 or 94s with huge gaps around their noses. It is hard to believe that this is an improvement in safety.

Re: The case against masks at school

#70

Post by azangru » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 5:20 PM UTC

aidenn0 wrote: post #2

I live somewhere with mild winters so the schools don't have any hallways (the classrooms just open to the outside). This meant that kids could at least get a break from masking between classes. However, after coming back from winter break, the schools started mandating masks outside as well as in, and including during PE class. As you can imagine, my asthmatic daughter was not pleased.

> after coming back from winter break, the schools started mandating masks outside as well as in

While the effectiveness of masks at schools indoors is questionable, is there any evidence at all for using, let alone mandating masks outside? I would have thought that the sheer volume and circulation of fresh air should dilute viral particles below the infectious concentration. What are they protecting against: direct sneezing into someone else's face?