Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse • Hacker News Board

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#471

Post by nradov » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 1:59 PM UTC

matthewdgreen wrote: post #436

dools wrote: post #240

The funny thing is that everyone commenting here thinks that we're headed towards an authoritarian nightmare, but for different reasons. It's not until you sit with someone and nut out what they mean by "authoritarian" and "censorship" and so on that you realise you're completely morally and politically opposed to them. This shallow political take is what allows so many strange bedfellows to unite on the "political r…

I would like to hear a long-form version that actually spells out your argument. I think we’re headed towards an authoritarian nightmare because politicians worldwide seem to be interested in tearing up the democratic process. Others seem to think we’re headed towards an authoritarian nightmare because YouTube takes down some videos. These things don’t seem comparable to me, but your comment makes me think I’m missin…

I think what you're missing is that social media companies are now essentially acting as government propaganda outlets and actively suppressing dissent. Some people believe that the current pandemic justifies suppressing "misinformation", but obviously once the government has that power they're going to use it for other purposes as well.

https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/563547-hypocritical-...

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#472

Post by mensetmanusman » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 2:00 PM UTC

hutzlibu wrote: post #425

dools wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. I had this conversation with my daughter the other day. She was like "But ... they just think the same thing about what you're saying". I was like "Totally, the only difference is that I'm right, and they're wrong". She was like "how do you know?". That lead to a much longer session of reviewing types of biases and fallacies, the scientific method and various other critical thinking tools I've developed over the…

"but whoever is on the "other side" is having the same conversation with their kids, and showing them tools and resources they've developed over the years to decide what information to trust and, to the kid, it's just as convincing!!" I wish. And sometimes they do. But there are lots and lots of people who have various religious/ideological dogmas. They do not show their kid the scientific method - they preach their…

It has helped me to realize that most of politics is preference, and preference rarely need be informed by the scientific method, especially when most of our daily choices are preference based.

E.g. who do I love, what should I wear/watch/eat, where should I spend my money, etc.

Our culture has now taught a few generations that people get to decide their own truth, and they conflate preference for truth, and now we are witnessing what this means…

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#473

Post by naasking » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 2:00 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #367

Robotbeat wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I think the only way out of this is empathy. You don't have to think both sides are morally or rationally the same to have empathy for both sides. The alternative is either mass slaughter or mass displacement, at the extremes. You can't eliminate your "enemy" without either murdering/displacing them or somehow coming to terms with them (ideally, being friends with them). MLK got this right, and he was able to s…

Why should one have empathy with people who deny other peoples' basic human rights simply because of their gender, sexual orientation or religion? Back in 1939 the world decided they had enough of my ancestors (I'm German) and put a stop to bigotry by using force. These days, such views can get you elected to US Presidency. What a goddamn shame.

> Why should one have empathy with people who deny other peoples' basic human rights simply because of their gender, sexual orientation or religion?

Because people disagree about factual matters all the time, and if you're just going to fight people who disagree with you, you'll be fighting literally everyone for the rest of your life, and a stable society might well become untenable.

> Back in 1939 the world decided they had enough of my ancestors (I'm German) and put a stop to bigotry by using force.

That's a pretty weird take. You think countries fought Germany because of its bigotry, and not because it was an aggressive expansionist regime that invaded them?

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#474

Post by sethammons » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 2:04 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #420

exceptione wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hate the bad, not the people. "Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering"

Hateful ideology without followers is just that: ideology to be forgotten in the dustbin of history. It is one's own choice to believe in hateful ideology like racism, sexism or transphobia. No one forces anyone to believe in any kind of ideology - therefore the focus and the blame should be on the people who willingly decide to believe hateful ideology (and, obviously, the spreaders of such ideology). The US has bee…

Help me out. Watch Schindler's List (famous movie) and after, let us know if you still feel that, and in what ways how, the US is welcoming the successor of Nazi ideology. I'm not seeing it. Not even at a glance.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#475

Post by tremon » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 2:06 PM UTC

hutzlibu wrote: post #425

dools wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. I had this conversation with my daughter the other day. She was like "But ... they just think the same thing about what you're saying". I was like "Totally, the only difference is that I'm right, and they're wrong". She was like "how do you know?". That lead to a much longer session of reviewing types of biases and fallacies, the scientific method and various other critical thinking tools I've developed over the…

"but whoever is on the "other side" is having the same conversation with their kids, and showing them tools and resources they've developed over the years to decide what information to trust and, to the kid, it's just as convincing!!" I wish. And sometimes they do. But there are lots and lots of people who have various religious/ideological dogmas. They do not show their kid the scientific method - they preach their…

I don't think it's necessarily about them being right or wrong in the scientific sense. It's the communal disgrace that comes with having raised an apostate child. Being factually correct or incorrect is subordinate to communal standing.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#476

Post by naasking » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 2:07 PM UTC

throwawaygh wrote: post #134

ksdale wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My question is how does your platform differ from what Substack is already trying to do?

Substack is trying to generate returns for venture capitalists. That they agree with one piece of your politics at this particular moment in their company's growth and at this particular point in the evolution of your political beliefs is a massive red herring. Let me repeat. Substack is trying to generate returns for venture capitalists.

> Substack is trying to generate returns for venture capitalists.

Yes, but they're doing this by countering the heavily editorialized and censored mainstream print media with a more free speech-oriented platform. This is exactly how we should exploit markets to produce good social ends.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#477

Post by cloutchaser » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 2:10 PM UTC

hnuser847 wrote: post #464

Swenrekcah wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

European perspective here: Trump was definitely trying to make himself a dictator, just look at how he handled losing an election. Please don’t vote him in again America. Agree on moral panic issues though.

He was handed a global pandemic in which it was completely permissible for leaders to take on unprecedented, unlimited emergency powers, and yet he did nothing. He was actually criticized for not using his emergency powers to implement an (unconstitutional) national lockdown. If his true goal was to become a dictator, why did he do nothing when he was given the perfect opportunity?

No post body was provided.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#478

Post by the-dude » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 2:13 PM UTC

hnuser847 wrote: post #464

Swenrekcah wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

European perspective here: Trump was definitely trying to make himself a dictator, just look at how he handled losing an election. Please don’t vote him in again America. Agree on moral panic issues though.

He was handed a global pandemic in which it was completely permissible for leaders to take on unprecedented, unlimited emergency powers, and yet he did nothing. He was actually criticized for not using his emergency powers to implement an (unconstitutional) national lockdown. If his true goal was to become a dictator, why did he do nothing when he was given the perfect opportunity?

His European perspective means that it is skewed much much more "liberal" than when in the US.

About half the population here thinks he is a literal monster, worthy of a Godwin.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#479

Post by ttfkam » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 2:17 PM UTC

belorn wrote: post #411

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I realise this was a /rant, but it's still spectacularly misinformed and unhelpful. If your hot take on politics is that climate change, COVID and the war on terror are all the same thing and this proves the left and right are both the same, then you're part of the problem. This reads more like a smart person trying to rationalize their cognitive dissonance, when they know deep down they've found themselves on obviou…

Neither the left or the right is arguing that climate change or COVID does not exist. The loud disagreements is about what strategy to deploy. We have nations like Germany that want to use natural gas to combat climate change, and we got France that want to use nuclear. The left leans towards natural gas, the right towards nuclear, both arguing that their strategy will lead towards an end to climate change and that t…

This is a man elected to the US Senate in 1994. First elected to Cross in 1987. Still there today. Guess which political party he belongs to. https://youtu.be/3E0a_60PMR8

Folks are literally about to be put on respirators denying they're sick from Covid. They're rarely if ever left wing. https://youtu.be/WicsWfTm1ZI

So yeah, one side has the lion's share of denying climate change and Covid.

I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to research which demographic has been promoting the consumption of urine as a protective measure against a respiratory and vascular disease-causing virus.

It may be popular to blame politicians, but people need to take responsibility for voting for folks that espouse belief in Jewish space lasers. Whether you think the politician is putting up a front or honestly believes what they're peddling really doesn't matter in the long run if you're filling in the box next to their name on the ballot.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#480

Post by Kye » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 2:20 PM UTC

givemeethekeys wrote: post #248

dools wrote: post #240

The funny thing is that everyone commenting here thinks that we're headed towards an authoritarian nightmare, but for different reasons. It's not until you sit with someone and nut out what they mean by "authoritarian" and "censorship" and so on that you realise you're completely morally and politically opposed to them. This shallow political take is what allows so many strange bedfellows to unite on the "political r…

Fear leads to a loss of freedom. When we're afraid, we give power to politicians that promise deal with it swiftly. Pre-pandemic, the right had a monopoly on fear-based politicking. Then the pandemic hit and the left finally got their turn to exercise it. Has the war on terror stopped? No? When do we get to hop onto a plane without undressing ourselves? Oh, but now there's a war against viruses? So you have to undres…

If the left really got power we would all get a month paid vacation so we could actually afford to stock up and stay home while the virus dies off. The left is not in any way empowered in this country.