Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

on.substack.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

391–400 of 606 posts

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#391

Post by Vinnl »

ziroshima wrote: post #4

No doubt, these censors and would-be censors have the best of intentions. But you've really got your head up your own ass if you convince yourself that you are protecting people by deciding the information that is appropriate for them to be exposed to. I just don't understand the shortsightedness, the naivete, or the willingness to discard the principle of free speech.

> But you've really got your head up your own ass if you convince yourself that you are protecting people by deciding the information that is appropriate for them to be exposed to.

The main point, from my POV, is that it's already being decided which information is appropriate for people to be exposed to, by "the algorithm" guessing which posts are most likely to get people to engage, and exposes them to those.

I don't particularly think censorship is the option. Unfortunately, the European Parliament just rejected a proposal to ban personalised algorithms in general, but I wouldn't be surprised if we'd need something like that to deal with this.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#392

Post by chalst »

yunohn wrote: post #375
zriha wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Journalists have been serving the interests of moneyed elites since well over a hundred years. It's good that they finally have some competition, even if it means that flat earthers also get a voice. Well, I wouldn't agree with you, as journalists (and here I mean real journalists) are often members of professional organisation and they have code of conduct. Random people on Facebook or influencers doesn't have tha…

> members of professional organisation and they have code of conduct Laws exist, so there are no crimes? > Thanks to investigative journalists, you have things like Pandora papers. Yes, but that’s their point - not everyone is exposing things, because the elites control the media. Do remember that the Panama Papers whistleblower got mysteriously car-bombed. Here’s a viral modern-day example: https://www.vox.com/polic…

> Do remember that the Panama Papers whistleblower got mysteriously car-bombed.

Remember? As far as I am aware the whistleblower is still anonymous. Where did you get your information?

People who believe the elite control the media seem to often be very credulous towards claims that don't come from elites.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#393

Post by jcbrand »

zriha wrote: post #373
jcbrand wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> for me, influencers were journalist Journalists have been serving the interests of moneyed elites since well over a hundred years. It's good that they finally have some competition, even if it means that flat earthers also get a voice. > It is important for the whole society to engage in critical thinking and build trust. Critical thinking means listening to diverse viewpoints, weighing up the evidence and the argu…

> Journalists have been serving the interests of moneyed elites since well over a hundred years. It's good that they finally have some competition, even if it means that flat earthers also get a voice. Well, I wouldn't agree with you, as journalists (and here I mean real journalists) are often members of professional organisation and they have code of conduct. Random people on Facebook or influencers doesn't have tha…

> You have to ask yourself where is the line for critical thinking, for example flat earthers

There is no line. Everything and anything can be questioned.

There is nothing wrong with questioning the shape of the earth and then devising experiments to figure it out for yourself (as some flat earthers have done).

What the flat earthers do wrong however, is to then not trust the results of the experiments they themselves have devised (since these experiments invariably show the earth is not flat).

This documentary is really fascinating in that regard: https://www.netflix.com/de-en/title/81015076

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#394

Post by Broken_Hippo »

colordrops wrote: post #302
markdown wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They sell a product that potentially puts people in real danger. Choosing not to wear a mask is fine. An immunocompromised person can choose to cross the street when they see you. This product, allowing you to pretend to wear a mask in order to get close to people that don't want to be near maskless people is evil. And a "Rittenhouse Walks" t-shirt? I'm glad they've been de-platformed. Good riddance!

Using "immunocompromised people" as the excuse for every abuse of rights and ethics is the same as the right wing using "think of the children" or "the terrorists will get us".

A mask is not a human rights abuse.

You know the difference between "the terrorists will get us" and "wear a mask to help protect others"? Only the second one is based in fact. Just because you refuse to believe such doesn't change this.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#395

Post by TulliusCicero »

Low-moderation platforms tend to have...issues.

They attract trolls and extremists, the regular people don't like sharing space with trolls and extremists, so they leave. Rinse and repeat for a while, and soon all the normal people are gone.

If Facebook permitted everything, they'd just be committing business suicide.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#396

Post by marcus_holmes »

zriha wrote: post #373
jcbrand wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> for me, influencers were journalist Journalists have been serving the interests of moneyed elites since well over a hundred years. It's good that they finally have some competition, even if it means that flat earthers also get a voice. > It is important for the whole society to engage in critical thinking and build trust. Critical thinking means listening to diverse viewpoints, weighing up the evidence and the argu…

> Journalists have been serving the interests of moneyed elites since well over a hundred years. It's good that they finally have some competition, even if it means that flat earthers also get a voice. Well, I wouldn't agree with you, as journalists (and here I mean real journalists) are often members of professional organisation and they have code of conduct. Random people on Facebook or influencers doesn't have tha…

> Well, I wouldn't agree with you, as journalists (and here I mean real journalists) are often members of professional organisation and they have code of conduct

This is a "no true Scotsman" fallacy. Clearly there are professional journalists who are not adhering to the code of conduct. So clearly you will claim that they are not "real" journalists, and that journalists are only "real" journalists if they adhere to the code of conduct. But this doesn't stop anyone from claiming to be a journalist, getting paid to be a journalist, or being part of the professional organisation while completely ignoring the code of conduct (as so many do).

> What we will have, oxygen deniers? They don't recognize oxygen?

We need the wacky thinkers. Yes, having someone champion a Flat Earth is a good thing. Groupthink is a very real danger. Remember the story of Plate Tectonics (someone saw how S America and Africa fit together, put together a theory that continents moved, was derided as a crackpot from all corners of Academia, turned out to be right [0]). Having an Oxygen Denier around would be a good thing, not a bad thing.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_tectonics#History_of_the...

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#397

Post by hutzlibu »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #290
givemeethekeys wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fear leads to a loss of freedom. When we're afraid, we give power to politicians that promise deal with it swiftly. Pre-pandemic, the right had a monopoly on fear-based politicking. Then the pandemic hit and the left finally got their turn to exercise it. Has the war on terror stopped? No? When do we get to hop onto a plane without undressing ourselves? Oh, but now there's a war against viruses? So you have to undres…

I realise this was a /rant, but it's still spectacularly misinformed and unhelpful. If your hot take on politics is that climate change, COVID and the war on terror are all the same thing and this proves the left and right are both the same, then you're part of the problem. This reads more like a smart person trying to rationalize their cognitive dissonance, when they know deep down they've found themselves on obviou…

"If your hot take on politics is that climate change, COVID and the war on terror are all the same thing "

I did not read it like this, but rather that all those topics are used by politicians in the same way. To generate fear, to control people. Neverending crisis. Neverending war. Rigid, emergency exemption laws for all eternity. Very well described by Orwell in 1984 already.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#398

Post by jcbrand »

chalst wrote: post #392
yunohn wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> members of professional organisation and they have code of conduct Laws exist, so there are no crimes? > Thanks to investigative journalists, you have things like Pandora papers. Yes, but that’s their point - not everyone is exposing things, because the elites control the media. Do remember that the Panama Papers whistleblower got mysteriously car-bombed. Here’s a viral modern-day example: https://www.vox.com/polic…

> Do remember that the Panama Papers whistleblower got mysteriously car-bombed. Remember? As far as I am aware the whistleblower is still anonymous. Where did you get your information? People who believe the elite control the media seem to often be very credulous towards claims that don't come from elites.

Is the Guardian elite enough for you?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/16/malta-car-bomb...

Not the whistleblower, but the journalist who investigated it.

Now, before you say this is proof that journalists are impartial and not beholden to elites... this is proof that journalists who act against the interests of the powerful and wealthy get terminated.

Other "journalists" see this and take note.

That's the stick. Then there are also the carrots.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#399

Post by roenxi »

givemeethekeys wrote: post #248
dools wrote: post #240

The funny thing is that everyone commenting here thinks that we're headed towards an authoritarian nightmare, but for different reasons. It's not until you sit with someone and nut out what they mean by "authoritarian" and "censorship" and so on that you realise you're completely morally and politically opposed to them. This shallow political take is what allows so many strange bedfellows to unite on the "political r…

Fear leads to a loss of freedom. When we're afraid, we give power to politicians that promise deal with it swiftly. Pre-pandemic, the right had a monopoly on fear-based politicking. Then the pandemic hit and the left finally got their turn to exercise it. Has the war on terror stopped? No? When do we get to hop onto a plane without undressing ourselves? Oh, but now there's a war against viruses? So you have to undres…

And supplementing this rant: a very frustrating aspect of all this is these things are predictable at a high level.

* It is certain that in a given lifetime there will be some hostile act that causes hundreds to thousands of deaths.

* When you look at how quickly people can travel the world, it was pretty clear there were going to be some pretty horrific diseases this century. We're thankful that it wasn't Ebola.

* The climate has been a matter of crisis since biblical times.

* Financial markets are obviously healthy, deindustrialisation of advanced economies is a sign of sustainable progress, printing money then handing it out to asset owners has becoming the normal response because it has proven to work very well and isn't causing any social pressures at all (people voted for Trump only due to racism). So maybe the next financial crisis is unpredictable. Things seem pretty rosy in this department. No need to prepare.

Why humans are programmed to wait until midway through a crisis to start identifying the risks is a puzzler. The problems are very obvious unless people listen to mass media.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#400

Post by deadpannini »

Nursie wrote: post #291
cf141q5325 wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We know some things are wrong, we have evidence that they're wrong, and believing in some of those things can cause people to take actions which endanger and even kill others. That concerns you as well. Thats the whole issue. There is no "reasonable default" to fall back on. That you have identified some rather obnoxious idiots doesnt mean you are suddenly smart enough to tell the rest of the world what to do. Espec…

By your logic, we should never try to establish facts and "I didn't do it" should always be a valid defence for murder, as reality is really complex and making a determination of truth or facts is impossible. What's more in decreeing one version of events to be factual, and imposing a prison sentence on someone for 'murder', the state is acting as an authoritatiran arbiter of reality. Just to add - I specifically sai…

It's not that we should never try to establish facts. Rather, we should never prevent people from challenging them.
Post reply on HN