Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ok, but even if you pick an equivalently risky proposition with a robo adviser you’d inherently make less money due to the fee differential. Furthermore if robo advisers really could make more money on a risk adjusted basis it would literally make them more money to use their own service than to sell it.
Other than robo advisors, what service exists where I can schedule a weekly transfer and automatically invest across 6-8 asset classes? (Many 401k providers do this, but I’m not aware of any post-tax investment accounts other than robo advisors) If there’s a single ETF that will do what Wealthfront and others are doing, I’d switch away in a heartbeat if the fees were lower.
UBS Acquires Wealthfront for $1.4B
301–310 of 330 posts
Re: UBS Acquires Wealthfront for $1.4B
#302Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you're getting 20% returns you've quit your day job and are doing this exclusively, right?
Not GP, but there's no secret sauce here. VTSAX is up 25% each of the last three years, and it's hardly unique. The market has been doing well. Things that track the market will also do well.
The (US) market has done 11% annualized in the last 15 years. 20% is not just "traking the market". It's the difference between going from $1m to less than $5m or more than $15m.
Now, if "15ish years" means "12 years and 9 months, from the exact bottom" then yes, the annualized return has been over 18%.
Re: UBS Acquires Wealthfront for $1.4B
#303Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ok, but even if you pick an equivalently risky proposition with a robo adviser you’d inherently make less money due to the fee differential. Furthermore if robo advisers really could make more money on a risk adjusted basis it would literally make them more money to use their own service than to sell it.
Other than robo advisors, what service exists where I can schedule a weekly transfer and automatically invest across 6-8 asset classes? (Many 401k providers do this, but I’m not aware of any post-tax investment accounts other than robo advisors) If there’s a single ETF that will do what Wealthfront and others are doing, I’d switch away in a heartbeat if the fees were lower.
But if you go from $50k to $500k with them you will be paying ten times as much (depending on the fee structure, of course). At some point, it may not be worth it.
Re: UBS Acquires Wealthfront for $1.4B
#304Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ok, but even if you pick an equivalently risky proposition with a robo adviser you’d inherently make less money due to the fee differential. Furthermore if robo advisers really could make more money on a risk adjusted basis it would literally make them more money to use their own service than to sell it.
Why does Vanguard sell you ETFs instead of keeping them for themselves?
Re: UBS Acquires Wealthfront for $1.4B
#305Earlier quoted context omitted.
I believe the discussion is about what Wealthfront is doing to earn their 0.25% fee. "Tax loss harvesting" seems unpersuasive.
At $100k AUM they start “direct indexing,” buying shares as well as ETFs. I only started in 2020 but so far they’ve harvested 3.6x their own fees. I would not have spent time doing that, so it’s gravy.
What is the situation where that is actually useful? Take me for example, I invested for 5 years in VTI and then sold it for a downpayment. What would their TLH do for me in that situation because I didn't need to offset cap gains in those middle years and the end year both get hit with cap gains.
Doesn't seem to do anything except charge a higher fee and create more irs paperwork in that situation.
Re: UBS Acquires Wealthfront for $1.4B
#306Earlier quoted context omitted.
Robos are actively managed, just not by human, and their fees reflect this. If they’re not actively managed then they make even less sense since they’re more expensive than indices that have better historical returns…
You can't invest in an index so the returns are fictional. An index ETF sure, but it might be worth paying for tax optimization over that.
If I’m wrong feel free to walk me through a 10 year period where any robo advised fund of your choosing has better return, risk and fee adjusted.
Re: UBS Acquires Wealthfront for $1.4B
#307A lot of you likely invest in a boglehead style. Wealthfront was an attempt to automate that while adding some bells and whistles on top; tax loss harvesting, smart beta, etc. Curious to see how they succeed as part of UBS. I thought Marcus/Goldman was going to buy them personally, so a bit surprised UBS is getting in on this game.
boglehead here. Switched off of Wealthfront awhile back. AFAIK they wouldn't outperform a three-fund portfolio. I actually wouldn't mind a platform that uses my brokerage as a backend and lets me do % allocations on 3~4 funds, automatically identifies rebalance opportunities and tax loss harvesting. Basically nudging me like 3~5x per year. I'd pay a flat fee to do that.
I like the idea of rebalance opportunity notifications, but it’s harder to get retirement funds into a google sheet with all the automatic contributions that happen…
Re: UBS Acquires Wealthfront for $1.4B
#308Interesting, the figure does seem quite low to me. Boglehead passive investing has worked really well for the past dozen years. I expect the next 10-15 to be much more challenging given the extremely high starting valuations and end of the low interest rate and QE tailwind. I've been building algotrading models to help tackle the challenge of when to hedge at https://grizzlybulls.com
A couple questions about your service/models: 1. It seems likely your models work internally with probabilities vs binary buy/sell decisions. Why do you not have the option to expose this probability, vs just simple buy sell signal? I would think this would pair very nicely with asset allocation. Have you investigated performance when using a sliding asset adjustment (even if just sp500 future & cash) that correspond…
1. Internally, the model does work on a sort of weightings / probability system but it's not so simple as boiling down to a single probability figure, i.e. if it hits over 60% we trigger buy or less than 40% trigger sell. Instead there are a few phases in signal change identification starting with an attempt to classify overall fundamentals and market move and moving down to the more granular indicators based on each level of abstraction. Certain low level indicators mean very different things based on the higher level classifier output. However, I could feasibly attempt to boil down to some sort of confidence or probability figure and expose it. I'll need to do some rigorous internal testing to ensure that it conveys accurate information first, but it's a good suggestion.
2. I think the fairest way to report the results is with a 1x/0x (long with no leverage on buy signal, market neutral on short) and then let the users decide whether to use leverage or to short the market during sell signals. Personally I have used leverage here and there and I tend to dial it up or down based on how well the model seems to be performing at a given time. However, I think it's important to note that no model can ever be 100% free from overfitting, and while a great deal of effort has been made to generalize and widen params and heuristics, there's bound to still be some and even I don't know to what degree. This, plus the fact that algotrading becomes more competitive every year means that I think it's prudent to conservatively expect returns somewhere in the 50-100% wide range of the past, which could also mean drawdowns a bit larger than the backtest shows. And of course, black swan risk is ever present. Finally, the models only go back to 2009, so we don't have great data to indicate how they might perform in a more harsh bear market such as 2007-2009 or 2000-2003. This is an unfortunate coincidence as one of the key indicators, Vix Futures, only came to be in late 2004 and the earliest I could find intraday data broken into distinct contracts (not just continuous front month) was early 2009.
As far as my occasional contradictory past reporting of my own financial position. There's a couple reasons this could be--at times I've included less liquid assets (private company shares, family business interest, 401k, home equity, etc), and at others I've only reported what's immediately available to me and highly liquid (bot account + emergency fund, etc). I feel I've probably erred on the side of sharing too much personal financial details over the years, but it is what it is. Secondly, I've not always been a stable investor. I hate to admit that back in the day I was a bit of a WSBer at times. Never consistently, but sometimes I'd get caught up in the FOMO and make a rash (and often too large) bet on an earnings report or something and (though I won a few times) usually end up losing my ass. As such my net worth was pretty volatile between 2013-2018. I've since given that all up and the bot has helped assuage my inner gambler. I also used to follow some other folks' timing systems back then and learned the hard way that most don't work, so all skepticism is warranted. Even I like to keep a skeptical mind about the future of my own models which is why I reported the wide range of expected outcome above
Re: UBS Acquires Wealthfront for $1.4B
#309Earlier quoted context omitted.
>> Yes, a financial planner can do all of this (although most don't). But when they do, they just use automated software to do it. It would be impossible to implement these strategies manually. So why even go with a financial planner when Wealthfront does the same thing, but better/cheaper? Thats the 100$B question right? Because fear. Because unfamiliarity. Also because 1% seems small, but its really more like 14% (…
The difference between 7% & 6% (1% fees) is in fact a LOT higher if one takes compounding into effect. By Year 40: * >$500K & * ALMOST a quarter of the portfolio When I was starting out, someone in my company's 401k forum mentioned this # (at that time the # was almost 40%, fees have gone down a lot since the early 2000's). And I am glad I paid attention. I try and pass on this wisdom everytime I can. Now, you can to…
All the discussion on this thread of "oh just go with a mutual fund" is insane to me. Even if funds have dropped in price from 1.5% to 1% to .7%, that is a huge number over the course of your life. The only realistic approach is super-low-cost ETFs, but those arent friendly to use or make a portfolio from. So the WealthFront layer is pretty critical IMHO.
Re: UBS Acquires Wealthfront for $1.4B
#310Earlier quoted context omitted.
At $100k AUM they start “direct indexing,” buying shares as well as ETFs. I only started in 2020 but so far they’ve harvested 3.6x their own fees. I would not have spent time doing that, so it’s gravy.
Except you are still going to pay those taxes when you do sell, you are just delaying the taxable event so I wouldn't consider that money actually saved. What is the situation where that is actually useful? Take me for example, I invested for 5 years in VTI and then sold it for a downpayment. What would their TLH do for me in that situation because I didn't need to offset cap gains in those middle years and the end y…