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Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

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Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#271

Post by kaba0 »

I really don’t understand why people think it is censorship which is the problem — writer’s of famous utopias didn’t see into the future, they talk about their present, extrapolating from it. I really don’t think the Orwellian world-view would have much to do with our present - the problem is not censorship, but misinformation, based on lack of knowledge, and indeed, trust.

Even though the internet is more centralized than we would like to, it is practically impossible to censor it even today. There is no way to e.g. remove every antivaxx, anti-intellectual bullshit article, “”study””, whatever no matter what, the most any big platform can do is deplatform/tweak their algorithms to prefer different content (which they gladly do for anti-science, unfortunately, because people shouting stupidly at each other drives up their views, quite a disgusting metric). So all in all, if you want to make something disappear from the internet, you just have to spam it with misinformation.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#272

Post by cf141q5325 »

Nursie wrote: post #236
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if we let people decide for themselves, they might decide wrong! And our position is clearly and obviously right! But people are stupid and will listen to lies, so we have to remove the possibility of them being exposed to those lies! /s, in case it wasn't obvious... People are more certain of their own position than is warranted. This is true in politics (as C. S. Lewis said, in practice no policy can be more th…

The issue with that approach to me is you end up saying every piece of information is as valid as any other. We know some things are wrong, we have evidence that they're wrong, and believing in some of those things can cause people to take actions which endanger and even kill others. So what do you do? I'm not advocating censorship as a solution, but simply throwing up your hands and saying "who are you to judge?" is…

>We know some things are wrong, we have evidence that they're wrong, and believing in some of those things can cause people to take actions which endanger and even kill others.

That concerns you as well. Thats the whole issue. There is no "reasonable default" to fall back on. That you have identified some rather obnoxious idiots doesnt mean you are suddenly smart enough to tell the rest of the world what to do. Especially since chances are you have fallen for sock puppets aimed at creating a reaction in you to get you to accept and call for authoritarian solutions.

Authoritarian solutions dont work. Just wanting them to work doesnt work, a short look into history shows that. Reality in the end is really complex. Too complex to just force other people around no matter how smart somebody feels on the topic. Because thats how stupid people always think of themselves, "smart enough" to understand the implications of forced actions just this one time.

edit: All of this not to mention that it always create a reaction in people. Which leaves us with conflict on topics we should be able to find a consensus.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#273

Post by Gareth321 »

Barrin92 wrote: post #257

I honestly have never seen a single shred of evidence or just even common sense that backs these platitudes about trust and free expression up. Let's take another nation and covid as a concrete example, Singapore. In Singapore, there's not a lot of free speech. Yet there's a lot of trust. Lee Kuan Yew, in his biography, addressed this trust question very directly, and commented on American media as well. Lee Kuan Yew…

>Merit and authority and trust are build up slowly and are hard won. When everyone can be defamed, when lie and insult comes at no cost, and if everyone can spread competing versions of reality for free you are in an environment in which trust is impossible. Not because there isn't enough criticism, but because there's too much.

This has been the war cry of despots, kings, and dictators since before recorded history. There are very few examples of it working out well for anyone. "I am preventing you from criticising me for your own good." Isn't quite as noble or virtuous as you think it is.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#274

Post by epgui »

logicchains wrote: post #255
epgui wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine you have free speech. Yay! Now what? Why was this so important again? Free speech is not an end goal. It's a tool that serves a purpose. In the relationship between a powerful government and a collection of individually vulnerable citizens, it pushes the power balance farther toward the individual. Is the goal to give all the power to the individual? No, that's not the goal. The goal is to have some sort of e…

>Is the goal to give all the power to the individual? No, that's not the goal. The goal is to have some sort of equilibrium between the powers of the government and the powers of individuals. The government is "individuals"! Every bit of power you take from the individuals in society, you give to the individuals in government. And historically the vast majority of these people have been corrupt and self-serving, beca…

In the context of my post, the meaning of "government" is basically Hobbes' Leviathan, or a more modern version of it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leviathan_(Hobbes_book)#Part_I...

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#275

Post by JoshuaDavid »

throwawaylinux wrote: post #220
JoshuaDavid wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > Why would trustworthy people even try to gain power > To improve society. Is gaining power the most efficient way for a trustworthy and ethically constrained person to improve society? Keep in mind that if you answer that question "yes", you need to believe that attempting to gain power and use it ethically and responsibly is more effective at helping people than trying to earn a bunch of money and throwing it at…

> Is gaining power the most efficient way for a trustworthy and ethically constrained person to improve society? I don't know, I doubt anybody really knows. I suspect it would highly depend on the individual and the circumstance they find themselves in. Either way people do things that are not "the most efficient" all the time in all areas of their lives. > Keep in mind that if you answer that question "yes", you nee…

> I don't answer yes. I think a lot of charity work has pretty dismal results in improving society at a large scale to be honest, but that's another story. In any case it's quite possible to do both. Most political offices come with a salary.

I find it unlikely that attempting to optimize somewhat for both effective charitable contributions and climbing the political ladder is likely to result in better outcomes than focusing your full attention on either goal individually. (Also r.e. charity work frequently having dismal results, that is why I specified "givewell's top picks" not "The Foundation for Curing Rare Cancers in Cute Puppies").

I do think that there probably are cases where your best bet for causing the change you want to see is going into politics, but I don't think that politics are high enough value that just being a generically ethical person trying to climb the ladder will have a sufficient positive impact to make it a better course of action than the alternatives.

Maybe I'm overestimating the difficulty of climbing that ladder though, or underestimating the potential for change.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#276

Post by Fricken »

steelstraw wrote: post #193
ziroshima wrote: post #4

No doubt, these censors and would-be censors have the best of intentions. But you've really got your head up your own ass if you convince yourself that you are protecting people by deciding the information that is appropriate for them to be exposed to. I just don't understand the shortsightedness, the naivete, or the willingness to discard the principle of free speech.

There is something miserable in the figure who enjoyed in their youth the freedom of speech, but from the comfort of age seeks to deny it to others; some deformity of the soul. -Edward Snowden

In my youth there was no internet and no one was complaining that they couldn't use it.

Now propaganda and conspiracy theories spread like wildfire. There's no need to censor anything because few can tell fact from fiction anyhow.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#277

Post by dash2 »

Barrin92 wrote: post #257

I honestly have never seen a single shred of evidence or just even common sense that backs these platitudes about trust and free expression up. Let's take another nation and covid as a concrete example, Singapore. In Singapore, there's not a lot of free speech. Yet there's a lot of trust. Lee Kuan Yew, in his biography, addressed this trust question very directly, and commented on American media as well. Lee Kuan Yew…

I completely disagree with you, but that was a very well put argument.

I agree that the censorship/trust connection is misplaced. America has been high trust, now it’s low trust, it’s always had the second amendment. So you can’t explain a change by a constant.

I think the best argument for freedom of speech is the one put forward by Mill: there is no other way to find out the truth but by letting all arguments be heard.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#278

Post by BeefWellington »

ziroshima wrote: post #4

No doubt, these censors and would-be censors have the best of intentions. But you've really got your head up your own ass if you convince yourself that you are protecting people by deciding the information that is appropriate for them to be exposed to. I just don't understand the shortsightedness, the naivete, or the willingness to discard the principle of free speech.

Here's what I don't understand about this argument: Why do slander and libel laws exist?

There's already limitations on free speech in place.

The article's broader point is that trust is low in a lot of institutions (for good reasons and bad) and thus the focus shouldn't be on censorship but on improving that trust. I agree with this approach.

However I think it is also important to recognize that propaganda has only become a more effective tool with the advent of social media. I don't think outright censorship is the correct path but I also don't believe slapping a "misleading" or similar tag on things actually qualifies as censorship.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#279

Post by noitpmeder »

givemeethekeys wrote: post #248
dools wrote: post #240

The funny thing is that everyone commenting here thinks that we're headed towards an authoritarian nightmare, but for different reasons. It's not until you sit with someone and nut out what they mean by "authoritarian" and "censorship" and so on that you realise you're completely morally and politically opposed to them. This shallow political take is what allows so many strange bedfellows to unite on the "political r…

Fear leads to a loss of freedom. When we're afraid, we give power to politicians that promise deal with it swiftly. Pre-pandemic, the right had a monopoly on fear-based politicking. Then the pandemic hit and the left finally got their turn to exercise it. Has the war on terror stopped? No? When do we get to hop onto a plane without undressing ourselves? Oh, but now there's a war against viruses? So you have to undres…

Wait how can I get some exposure to the stork market. I need to hedge my baby bets.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#280

Post by judahmeek »

zpeti wrote: post #246
canadaduane wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to hear more of your thoughts on this. One thought experiment that has helped me get my mind around the problem is "why is it necessary that parents shield children from some information?" I think free speech might have a context that is invisible to us. Something like a prior, or trained neural net, in which free speech and no censorship is absolutely the right thing. And then there might be other conte…

There is a difference between a child and an adult. We make that distinction for a reason, and we act differently for a reason. A great analogy is to think of an eggshell with a chick inside. The eggshell provides protection for a long time but is also restrictive. When the chick is strong enough it will break free. But if it breaks free too early it won’t be strong enough to survive in the world.

Do you have any statistical studies that show that adults are less likely to be manipulated than children?

If so, how was "manipulation" defined exactly?

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