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Alder Lake Core i9 processor is faster than the M1 Max

macworld.com

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Re: Alder Lake Core i9 processor is faster than the M1 Max

#271

Post by newaccount74 »

MBCook wrote: post #28
chii wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the fact is, apple hardware is not _that_ expensive relative to what you get for the money. Their supply chain is super optimized, and it's hard to beat them on price if a competitor decides to try (at the same quality that is).

Note that the PC that pulled off these numbers cost almost double what the Mac did. $2500 vs $4000. It includes the GPU (not cheap these days) but still a big difference.

The PC comes with 32GB of RAM and 4TB SSD. A similar specced Macbook Pro costs $4100, not $2500

Re: Alder Lake Core i9 processor is faster than the M1 Max

#273

Post by e4e78a06 »

throwawaylinux wrote: post #263
timpattinson wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not like Apple would ever do it, but the M1 should have heaps of OC headroom. Given that the RAM is already on package, all they need to do is turn up the CPU multiplier. AMD chips are doing similar clocks to Intel on TSMC N7, so Apple could (but won't) have a chip running way higher than the clocks they are currently shipping with. Also, it's kinda inaccurate to imply any overclocked setup will crash, there's p…

Overclocking headroom means you have timing slack, and timing slack means you have faster ~= leakier circuits than necessary, or stages which aren't filled with work which is also an inefficiency. I expect Apple has an extreme focus on power efficiency and especially idle / leakage power, much more than Intel considering the core basically the same as they use in their phones. They also have a different approach to t…

> They do nearly 2x the work per clock as AMD chips which necessitates more logic per stage

Not all work is created equal. Decoders on Arm are definitely parallel (= don't have more serial logic for wider decoder) compared to the variable length decode x86 is stuck with. And your backend ports are also parallel (although maybe scheduling isn't?). The only places where wider always means more logic per stage is caches - register file, L1/L2/L3, BTB. For example Apple managed to work some magic with a 3 cycle 192kB L1. AMD and Intel are at 4 and 5 cycles for much smaller L1's. Part of the reason for that is probably because Apple doesn't need to hit 5GHz and can afford more logic per stage.

And in any case, it's very likely you could just shove more voltage through the chip and get it to clock higher, since the current 3.2GHz is very far from what we know TSMC N7/5 can do. I don't think you'd need a rework unless Apple wanted to target 4.5+GHz.

Re: Alder Lake Core i9 processor is faster than the M1 Max

#274

Post by dvhh »

mettamage wrote: post #267
dvhh wrote: post #257

I would think that speed would come 5th in my list of desirable feature in a laptop 1. portability 2. battery lifetime 3. cost 4. connectivity So Intel bragging for speed with such higher consumption and dedicated GPU (as opposed to integrated one). Maybe I have some niche use

Laptops are on a spectrum IMO. You can buy 5kg machines because you expect them to move them once every 2 months. You can buy a MacBook Air because you want to watch a show while cooking. These are the situations I have encountered.

at least the alder lake option (+RTX) do offer some option to be used as a slow cooking pad

Re: Alder Lake Core i9 processor is faster than the M1 Max

#275

Post by kingosticks »

amluto wrote: post #243
kingosticks wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is pipeline length related to max frequency?

It’s related indirectly. A longer pipeline tends to result in shorter stages within the pipeline. (This is the whole point of pipelining.)

OK, yes there's often correlation but that's it. A longer pipeline doesn't affect max circuit frequency.

The other sibling comment regarding distance isn't true. regardless of how insane your feedbacks are. Physical placement tools have always handled this in my experience (as a chip designer for 10+ years).

Re: Alder Lake Core i9 processor is faster than the M1 Max

#276

Post by throwawaylinux »

e4e78a06 wrote: post #273
throwawaylinux wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Overclocking headroom means you have timing slack, and timing slack means you have faster ~= leakier circuits than necessary, or stages which aren't filled with work which is also an inefficiency. I expect Apple has an extreme focus on power efficiency and especially idle / leakage power, much more than Intel considering the core basically the same as they use in their phones. They also have a different approach to t…

> They do nearly 2x the work per clock as AMD chips which necessitates more logic per stage Not all work is created equal. Decoders on Arm are definitely parallel (= don't have more serial logic for wider decoder) compared to the variable length decode x86 is stuck with. And your backend ports are also parallel (although maybe scheduling isn't?). The only places where wider always means more logic per stage is caches…

> Not all work is created equal.

> And in any case, it's very likely you could just shove more voltage through the chip and get it to clock higher,

Yes.

> since the current 3.2GHz is very far from what we know TSMC N7/5 can do.

N7/N5 can "do" 200GHz. 90nm could do 100GHz. The limit a device can do depends most highly on the logic.

> I don't think you'd need a rework unless Apple wanted to target 4.5+GHz.

3.2->4.4? I doubt it with any reasonable voltage that could actually ship in a device. Very hard to predict these things unless you've at least got basic shmoo plots and things like that in front of you.

Re: Alder Lake Core i9 processor is faster than the M1 Max

#277

Post by paines »

Yeah, the M1 is fast and does not get loud when doing heavy tasks BUT the whole system needs polishing by Apple. Last night i brew installed haskell-stack (HEAD) which would compile the whole thing. It takes quite some time and while doing so I was watching a show with Quicktime. The sound would skip every now and then like it was in the early 90ies with Linux and Sound. That was quite irritating and annoying. (14'' M1 Pro)

Re: Alder Lake Core i9 processor is faster than the M1 Max

#278

Post by coldtea »

dijit wrote: post #3

3.5%-5% increase in performance at more than double the wattage, for a chip that is not in consumers hands against a chip that basically hasn't changed and was released 14 months ago~ This is not the victory that the title implies. It's also a _little_ bit funny that the i9 laptop was double the price, given people usually rant loudly about how expensive Apple computers are.

>3.5%-5% increase in performance at more than double the wattage

Which would be throttled to death at that point on a nimble laptop anyway!

Why do they even bother?

>It's also a _little_ bit funny that the i9 laptop was double the price, given people usually rant loudly about how expensive Apple computers are.

They ususally don't do an Apple to Apple comparison, else the price differential for similar features, construction, etc. and some uniques that you only get from Apple is either zero or around $100-$200, when you pile in the extra options.

Instead they check things like that an extra 1TB of SSD is X on the Applestore but half or less on the street...

Re: Alder Lake Core i9 processor is faster than the M1 Max

#279

Post by baq »

dannyw wrote: post #189
kitsunesoba wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The M-series GPUs are pretty great for what they are. I haven't tried a ton of games on it, but my 16" M1 Pro handles WoW about as well as a desktop with an RTX 2070 or so, and does it without the machine turning into a jet turbine. It's not destroying discrete video cards or anything, but it's universes beyond your typical integrated offering.

M-series GPUs feature a lot of ASIC and media encoder/decoders. My M1 Air absolutely DESTROYS my RTX 3090 in h265/422 video editing, which is what my camera (Sony A7S iii) shoots. My 3090 would shutter and play my 60fps footage at 11fps using 350W while my passively cooled M1 doesn't miss a frame.

this just means the M1 has a fixed function block for your codec or whatever else you're doing and the 3090 doesn't. or that your video software is crazy broken.

it obviously doesn't matter for your workload, ultimately the M1 is faster and that's all that matters for you. just highlighting that this isn't magic, just hardware matched to use case.

Re: Alder Lake Core i9 processor is faster than the M1 Max

#280

Post by The_Colonel »

newaccount74 wrote: post #266
ajmurmann wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think one thing that creates that impression is the costs for beefier options in the Apple store. Everytime I configure a Mac and add RAM I feel ripped off. The price difference between the upgraded Mac and what you'd pay on Newegg is just so large. I'm still a happy customer, since I still get so much lasting value, but in the moment it certainly hurts.

It's Apple's way of price discrimination. They want to offer computers at every price point, but they don't want to build a dozen different models. So their entry level machines are a great deal -- you get the quality of a 5000€ machine for just 2500€ if you can live with limited storage. But if you want enough storage, you're paying the full price... I'm not a fan of their policy, because the result is that lots of…

> So their entry level machines are a great deal -- you get the quality of a 5000€ machine for just 2500€ if you can live with limited storage.

It sounds really weird to talk about 2500 EUR laptop as "entry level".

> They want to offer computers at every price point

They don't offer anything under 1000 EUR.

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