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The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

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Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#31

The major problem I see with this is that while the computer itself might still boot, the world around it will have changed so radically it will effectively be useless. You can see this with machines much younger than 50 years, they can't support the encryption required by most modern websites, interfaces age out of regular use: used a 24 pin parallel port lately? How about a modem? Even software with long support fo…

I got to say you're spot on. Keeping things working is no challenge looks at his commodores.

Keeping them relevant is more of a challenge, this is one reason I hate to see people forcing redirects to HTTPS, it's just great and dandy that modern browsers suggest this to users (as long as they don't force), but for vast vast amounts of information, in the free world, you shouldn't force people into always-encrypted. There is zero good reason I shouldn't be able to choose to read Wikipedia unencrypted. And I can do that on pretty much any machine that can somehow crawl onto the Internet.

There's also the problem of "easily replaceable parts", because parts stop being produced, and I think we've been in a golden-age of new-old-stock, and I don't see that continuing in the future. Easily replaceable pose two problems, first, is sourcing the actual part as the world moves on and production stops, the other is that easily replaceable is at odds with industry demand, sure, I personally like 40 pin dip sockets for my hobby electronics, because they're easy to solder, things are large enough I can see them! But I'd not want every appliance I own to be constrained by that, meaning there's no incentive to produce them, leading back to the first problem.

There are so many problems with how to build a machine that lasts, or, even how to build an architecture, or system, that lasts, but they are worthwhile pursuits, discussing and thinking about them is worthwhile, because, systems we can understand, own and service are inherently more valuable than the ones we cannot.

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#32
post #23

The major problem I see with this is that while the computer itself might still boot, the world around it will have changed so radically it will effectively be useless. You can see this with machines much younger than 50 years, they can't support the encryption required by most modern websites, interfaces age out of regular use: used a 24 pin parallel port lately? How about a modem? Even software with long support fo…

A project like this would be interesting for a computer that controls some other long lived thing, like an industrial control computer. There is an awful number of old beige boxes running Windows 95 controlling some very expensive machinery. The lack of software updates is not a problem (until somebody tries to introduce IIoT...), but finding replacement parts can become quite difficult.

not too long ago I did a flux image of a floppy, that floppy was required to boot a perfectly good cnc machine, and if it died, the machine would need its computer replaced (read: need to be replaced itself), the floppy drive was then replaced by a floppy emulator with a USB stick, and the guy now has two backups.

It was not too early either, the first tracks of that floppy were visibly worn...

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#33

The major problem I see with this is that while the computer itself might still boot, the world around it will have changed so radically it will effectively be useless. You can see this with machines much younger than 50 years, they can't support the encryption required by most modern websites, interfaces age out of regular use: used a 24 pin parallel port lately? How about a modem? Even software with long support fo…

Good point. Maybe this ForeverComputer could get a swappable component that does the connecting and encrypting? Kinda like you can SSH into a supercomputer from a Raspberry Pi and pretend your Pi itself has all that power.

Well yeah, but like a lot of retro computers that have a Pi emulating a modem or a disk drive as a net gateway, you might as well just use the Pi. People do it for fun or for the challenge, which is awesome. I don't think anybody on a gateway sitting at their C64 pretends that its viable.

I do love reading about that stuff though.

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#34
post #31

The major problem I see with this is that while the computer itself might still boot, the world around it will have changed so radically it will effectively be useless. You can see this with machines much younger than 50 years, they can't support the encryption required by most modern websites, interfaces age out of regular use: used a 24 pin parallel port lately? How about a modem? Even software with long support fo…

I got to say you're spot on. Keeping things working is no challenge looks at his commodores . Keeping them relevant is more of a challenge, this is one reason I hate to see people forcing redirects to HTTPS, it's just great and dandy that modern browsers suggest this to users (as long as they don't force), but for vast vast amounts of information, in the free world, you shouldn't force people into always-encrypted. T…

There is a reason to read Wikipedia via https: ISP can otherwise inject ads or even change the page. This has actually happened.

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#35

The Commodore 64 was introduced 40 years ago. I’m not sure 50 years is that long or hard for a computer to do? This article is written like 50 years is undicipherable hieroglyphics territory. I can still remember LOAD “*”,8,1 like it was yesterday. And original Commodore 64s still run today.

What about the load times? I remember waiting what felt like hours, hoping that the game I wanted to play was going to load successfully from tape, watching those flashing lines like a hawk - and frequently being disappointed!

Last time i wanted to load a game, i did it from mp3 files on my phone, with a usb-c to minijack and a minijack to magnetic tape interface adapter. worked flawlessly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassette_tape_adapter

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#36
post #31

The major problem I see with this is that while the computer itself might still boot, the world around it will have changed so radically it will effectively be useless. You can see this with machines much younger than 50 years, they can't support the encryption required by most modern websites, interfaces age out of regular use: used a 24 pin parallel port lately? How about a modem? Even software with long support fo…

I got to say you're spot on. Keeping things working is no challenge looks at his commodores . Keeping them relevant is more of a challenge, this is one reason I hate to see people forcing redirects to HTTPS, it's just great and dandy that modern browsers suggest this to users (as long as they don't force), but for vast vast amounts of information, in the free world, you shouldn't force people into always-encrypted. T…

There is one reason I can think of for encrypting websites, it tells you the information is coming from where you expect and not an interloper.

I agree its worth thinking about about serviceability and longevity but I can't help feeling like it would be like worrying about keeping a PDP 11 running for fifty years.

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#37
post #3

I think that the computers built to last 50 years are not really computers, but other things which contain or use a computer. Word processor, car, calculator, camera, space telescope...

I can't speak to the others, but I have very little faith in modern car computers lasting that long. They have become so complex, gaining additional sensors and controls for improved safety and efficiency (great!) and requiring special programming tools at the dealership to update software or install some replacement parts (not so great!). If the company goes under or can no longer support an aging car computer system, a single part failure could limit the functionality of the vehicle. (SAAB TechII, cars with 2G/3G modems, etc.)

On the other hand, if you're talking about older ECUs and related systems before the rise of the connected digital dash, you're probably right. The one in my car is 40 years old, and it seems to be built to last at least 50 if the rest of the car can hold on that long.

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#38
post #34
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got to say you're spot on. Keeping things working is no challenge looks at his commodores . Keeping them relevant is more of a challenge, this is one reason I hate to see people forcing redirects to HTTPS, it's just great and dandy that modern browsers suggest this to users (as long as they don't force), but for vast vast amounts of information, in the free world, you shouldn't force people into always-encrypted. T…

There is a reason to read Wikipedia via https: ISP can otherwise inject ads or even change the page. This has actually happened.

That's not a good reason to take away my choice, and rob me of the opportunity to access this information on an older device if I wanted to.

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#39
post #5

Right now, I don’t see how a general purpose computer could last 50 years. The article refers to it being modular, but you’d have to replace so many parts… would it still be the same computer?

Chip of Theseus?

Underrated comment!
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