Alder Lake Core i9 processor is faster than the M1 Max • Hacker News Board

Re: Alder Lake Core i9 processor is faster than the M1 Max

#241

Post by philistine » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 6:52 AM UTC

friedman23 wrote: post #8

RandomBK wrote: post #4

> During the Cinebench R23 multi-core test, the Alder Lake laptop was consistently in the 100-watt range, [...] M1 Max’s power draw was 39.7 watts Ouch. > MSI GE76 Raider got 6 hours of offline video playback, a far cry from the MacBook Pro’s 17 hours. Double ouch. That's a huge gap, and 6 is low even in absolute terms. It's still a nice beefy chip, but still a far cry from the engineering marvel that Apple pulled of…

100 watts, so basically I have no reason to use this over a desktop. The battery life on the m1 macbooks is a game changer. I don't need more power out of my laptop I need it to be cool to the touch and last at least 9 hours with normal usage.

With those laptops, we're back to the days of the luggables. It's a desktop you can carry, with some caveats in terms of performance related to the choice of parts.

Apple is truly playing a different game.

Re: Alder Lake Core i9 processor is faster than the M1 Max

#242

Post by klodolph » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 6:54 AM UTC

chias wrote: post #113

Eric_WVGG wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think this is going to happen, but: It would be extremely funny if Apple strapped a heavy copper heatsink and a turbo fan to an M1 and just overclocked the ever-lasting crap out of it. The crazy thing about using a Macbook Pro (with an M1 Pro or M1 Max CPU) is that, in single-threaded performance, it's really no faster than a dippy little Macbook Air. And at the end of the day, single-thread performance is mo…

Overclocking isn't just limited by heat dissipation, and dealing with the additional heat generation is one of the easier issues to overcome. Much more limiting is the fact that the electronic components in the hardware (everything from RAM to the more "integrated" components on the PCBs) have certain amounts of time which they need to take in order to tie voltages high or low, to either read or output a bit. This am…

Transition times decrease as voltage increases. The amount of power being dissipated is roughly proportional to V^2 f, and V is roughly proportional to f, so the tradeoff kinda sucks (double frequency = 8x power consumption), but you can eke out some additional performance if you are willing to dissipate more heat, within limits.

Re: Alder Lake Core i9 processor is faster than the M1 Max

#243

Post by amluto » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 6:54 AM UTC

kingosticks wrote: post #193

zeusk wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google propogation delay, your pipeline's length and delay of devices within that pipe determine the max frequency your circuit can run at (a very high level overview).

How is pipeline length related to max frequency?

It’s related indirectly. A longer pipeline tends to result in shorter stages within the pipeline. (This is the whole point of pipelining.)

Re: Alder Lake Core i9 processor is faster than the M1 Max

#244

Post by tehbeard » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 6:55 AM UTC

gnufied wrote: post #34

I know everyone is going to jump the gun and declare how mediocre Intel's offerings are in terms of power efficiency but lets not forget that this Laptop is also running RTX 3080Ti and historically more 5% performance on Alder Lake CPUs requires somehow way more power. Same thing happened during 12900K reviews. IMO - it would be interesting to see benchmark of P and U series Laptops. Honestly I do not think they are…

> I do not think Intel is even after Apple yet but they look to have caught up and surpassed AMD with this release for sure.

Hmmm, as I've said before on other reviews around 12th gen, it feels like they've just pulled some levers around the power/thermal envelope being targeted (atleast on i9s?). Not really much more they can squeeze out of it that way...

I'd love to see some competition, but this feels like such a short term way to get "back in the game".

Re: Alder Lake Core i9 processor is faster than the M1 Max

#245

Post by sroussey » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 6:56 AM UTC

accountLost wrote: post #233

This is a 10nm processor, right ? So a 10mn processor can be as fast as a 5mn processor but at more than double the voltage ? Not so bad. What would be the perf of this processor with TSMC 5nm tech ?

Those numbers are not comparable. In fact, these days they are meaningless.

Intel used to measure a part of a transistor. Worked well until the geometry of the transistor changed and there wasn’t something comparable. So they chose something different that kinda looked right.

TSMC chose something else.

These numbers are meaningless.

Mostly all the fabs really are talking about transistors per mm. But if you look closely, logic density is changing at a different rate than other things like those that make up sram (particularly TSMC).

Those caches are increasing size because 1) new designs want more MB and 2) sram density is not improving as well as logic density so caches are taking up more space in a relative basis if all you do is a die shrink.

Re: Alder Lake Core i9 processor is faster than the M1 Max

#246

Post by marcan_42 » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 6:58 AM UTC

philistine wrote: post #239

speed_spread wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least this CPU can run more than a single OS.

Give it a couple more months and Linux will boot on Apple Silicon. Give it a couple of years and Microsoft will wisen up and start licensing Windows for Apple Silicon too. Then we'll be back to where we were before the architecture switch.

Linux already boots on Apple Silicon and has for almost a year; give it a couple more months (if that) and we'll have a reasonably user friendly installer for it and enough hardware working to be worth using ;)

(Basically I'm going to make battery stats work, polish up the install process, re-do the CPU frequency scaling driver, and ship it)

Re: Alder Lake Core i9 processor is faster than the M1 Max

#247

Post by Jansen312 » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 7:01 AM UTC

dijit wrote: post #3

3.5%-5% increase in performance at more than double the wattage, for a chip that is not in consumers hands against a chip that basically hasn't changed and was released 14 months ago~ This is not the victory that the title implies. It's also a _little_ bit funny that the i9 laptop was double the price, given people usually rant loudly about how expensive Apple computers are.

I was reading up a lot of reviews on these alder lake, either those reviewers are paid or simply Intel fanboy, they all seems to downplay the power consumption and giving Intel glowing reviews (and quickly skim over power issue). I wouls year end and see how 13th vs Ryzen 4 will battle out.

Re: Alder Lake Core i9 processor is faster than the M1 Max

#248

Post by Gigachad » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 7:02 AM UTC

sorry_outta_gas wrote: post #238

Gigachad wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What gives people the perception of apple being expensive is that other OEMs play tricks to boost numbers on a spec sheet that the common person checks while cheeping out massively on parts that don’t show on the spec sheet. I know someone who got an MSI laptop recently and it’s complete garbage. The screen casing cracked from the force of the hinge within months, the trackpad is borderline unusable, wifi is spotty,…

It's really the cost of capability and addons, I'm not sure about that MSI model but you're able to get a ton of storage and a good gpu for under what apple charges if you want one or two tb of storage and decent ram you're looking at $3,000+ after taxes

I think this still ties in to the point. People laugh at the apple user mentality of “I just know it’s going to work if I buy Apple”. But then you have windows OEMs where you have to do careful research because the product line is full of scams and traps.

Re: Alder Lake Core i9 processor is faster than the M1 Max

#249

Post by 2oi3ji32oj » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 7:02 AM UTC

victorronin wrote: post #25

I switched about half a year ago from a MacBook Pro with an Intel processor to MacBook Pro with an M1 processor. My overall impression was "when the hell will it run out of power"? I spent the whole working day (without a charger) and it was still at 60%, while I was constantly stressed before when I had to do something without a charger for more than 3-4 hours. I don't care what any test, but tripling battery life w…

On my macbook M1 Pro I was able to work for ~11 hours without charging and on Thinkpad P14S GEN 2 AMD (5850U CPU) with a 4K display I can work for ~ 7 hours. So the difference is not that big TBH.

Re: Alder Lake Core i9 processor is faster than the M1 Max

#250

Post by ksec » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 7:06 AM UTC

1. The M1 / M1 Pro / Max Single Core Max out at around 5W. On TSMC 5nm, at 3.2Ghz.

2. The AlderLake i9-12900HK, is on Intel 7nm ( Or Intel7 ), runs with a a maximum of 5Ghz. My guess the power for single core on this chip is anywhere from 15W to 20W.

3. The Single core performance between the two are about ~5% to 20% if you are SIMD heavy.

There are lots of people in thread and the article linked comparing the system vs system ( the two laptop ) and CPU vs CPU, the two chip. I felt both of them are misguided. On System level it completely ignore the thermal dissipation which is the limiting factor. You could have fitted a GTX 3080 within a 20W cooling allowance and it will show M1 Max winning in every GPU benchmarks. On the CPU level comparing the TDP of both SoC completely neglect the design choice and components inside SoC. The 100W M1 Max includes NPU, Media Engine, 8 Channel ( Or 16 depending how you want to count them ) memory controller, SSD Controller, FPGA and GPU. It doesn't make sense to compare to i9-12900HK only on CPU and then use the total chip TDP.

And then there is the often repeated MultiCore performance( both on Android, and on PC with AMD CPU ). It is a useless number without knowing the power and core number. MSM likes to throw this number out without giving any context.