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Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

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Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#231

No doubt, these censors and would-be censors have the best of intentions. But you've really got your head up your own ass if you convince yourself that you are protecting people by deciding the information that is appropriate for them to be exposed to. I just don't understand the shortsightedness, the naivete, or the willingness to discard the principle of free speech.

The argument I sometimes see is that censorship is justified to prevent indirect harm of misinformation. If you want to be unvaccinated, that is your choice, but posting anti-vax content may have externalities , such as convincing other ppl to not be vaxed.

Well there’s been an astronomical number of breakthrough cases on the vaccine so maybe the problem is people like you talking in such a definitive terms over something that is clearly not 100% effective

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#232
I believe the trust crisis is about social media itself - about physical ability to write anonymously. It couldn't not result in avalanche of lies, both honest and malintentional - the infamous "Putin's bots" are a part of the problem but not even such a big part. Problem is because everyone can post, opinions sparking most outrage will be reposted and thus multiply the most - because the neutral, centrist opinions are just not clickbait-y enough. It results in division naturally - because soon almost half of everything posted is offensive to half the people, as the middle ground disappears. That amplifying, and thus divisive, power of ability to repost is by itself enough to split society in groups.

Maybe solution is to tax social media, in a way that they become more like traditional media? Essentially, you pay based on how many people saw your content - it may be cents per year if you just share your vacation photos with a bunch of friends, but if you post an anti-mask meme, it will drain your pre-paid account in minutes as it is being reposted, and then disappears and no longer seen by anyone (along with the rest of your content) when you reach zero, before you refill?

I see no problem with the principle of free speech here: there was free speech before social media but you could never go on TV, publish a newspaper ad, or print a pamphlet for free. Free speech is about freedom, not price. And just ban all "free as in free beer" social media outright.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#233

I was trying to find those “fake face masks” just so someone knew what I was talking about, and apparently they were all deplatformed from Google searches. I didn’t want to buy one, just reference it. But nada. Found it on DuckDuckGo and it’s now my default search engine. It’s just so offensive they think they should control what I’m exposed to. Creepy and offensive. Google has lost its mission of making the worlds i…

I just search for "fake face masks" on google and they came right up https://www.google.com/search?q=fake+face+mask&tbm=isch

They sell a product that potentially puts people in real danger. Choosing not to wear a mask is fine. An immunocompromised person can choose to cross the street when they see you. This product, allowing you to pretend to wear a mask in order to get close to people that don't want to be near maskless people is evil. And a "Rittenhouse Walks" t-shirt?

I'm glad they've been de-platformed. Good riddance!

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#234

No doubt, these censors and would-be censors have the best of intentions. But you've really got your head up your own ass if you convince yourself that you are protecting people by deciding the information that is appropriate for them to be exposed to. I just don't understand the shortsightedness, the naivete, or the willingness to discard the principle of free speech.

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Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#235
post #104

The question is where that trust problem comes from. Taking the trust problem as granted and shying away from certain measures like censorship is not going to solve anything. Not to discuss whether censorship is wrong or right, but wouldn't this then be a case where we just put lipstick on a pig? I grew up in Austria and back in the day the Nazis also didn't trust a lot of people. But their lack of trust was totally…

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Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#236

No doubt, these censors and would-be censors have the best of intentions. But you've really got your head up your own ass if you convince yourself that you are protecting people by deciding the information that is appropriate for them to be exposed to. I just don't understand the shortsightedness, the naivete, or the willingness to discard the principle of free speech.

But if we let people decide for themselves, they might decide wrong! And our position is clearly and obviously right! But people are stupid and will listen to lies, so we have to remove the possibility of them being exposed to those lies! /s, in case it wasn't obvious... People are more certain of their own position than is warranted. This is true in politics (as C. S. Lewis said, in practice no policy can be more th…

The issue with that approach to me is you end up saying every piece of information is as valid as any other.

We know some things are wrong, we have evidence that they're wrong, and believing in some of those things can cause people to take actions which endanger and even kill others.

So what do you do? I'm not advocating censorship as a solution, but simply throwing up your hands and saying "who are you to judge?" isn't really working either.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment just feels like you are only pointing fingers at large corps while ignoring the massive numbers of smaller niche websites (like forums) run by people with small pockets, which allow differing amounts of diversity of discussion. The Facebook/Twitter backlash is pretty far along and some people have migrated to Gab, Parler, Truth, etc. They are low SNR for me, so I don’t care to join them, as much of the U…

The barrier to entry for making you're own twitter is building you're own damn internet. How can you say no barrier to entry when every major tech company will act in lockstep to refuse to do business with you? Hell even there datacenter started to refuse to do business; at that point you need to build a parallel world which is a pretty damn big barrier.

The barrier for making your own “Twitter clone” is low, unless it actually has to scale to Twitter’s perf. The barrier to making a “Twitter clone which has absolutely zero moderation” (which is close to what Parler said) means that you are unlikely to be able to find any vendors in the USA which will accept those contract terms or want to accept the liability.

Analogy: try couch surfing to minimize paying rent. A person with a good reputation and good roommate habits can easily find a place to stay and it will likely be cheap with lots of options for places to stay.

But if that person starts to consume the food that was bought by and marked for others, doesn’t do their part of the chores, starts arguments with roommates and guests, doesn’t pay their rent on time, disrespects the property, violates norms of conduct, then they cause harm to the responsible parties living in that home. Don’t be surprised when they get evicted and their social credibility (like AirBnB ratings) fall off and no one wants to host them. This is remarkably close to what happened when Parler was kicked off of the App Stores and then lost their CDN, DNS, and hosting.

They aren’t acting “in lock step”, they are all equally afraid of the consequences of hosting a high liability client and are looking for a contractual reason to cut their liability.

Have you seen the death threats a Plumber in Texas got because his truck was sold then ended up in ISIS in Syria/Iraq with his company logo on it? Branding and association have real world costs.

It’s also not clear if upstream providers have zero liability if they allow content that is blatantly illegal. I seem to remember that DHS / FBI will just barge into data centers with a warrant and pull servers off the rack with little concern for the other clients that are co-hosted on that physical hardware. The collateral damage of being a client in an unmoderated data center is far more than being in a data center where the moderation rules weed out the riskiest clients.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment just feels like you are only pointing fingers at large corps while ignoring the massive numbers of smaller niche websites (like forums) run by people with small pockets, which allow differing amounts of diversity of discussion. The Facebook/Twitter backlash is pretty far along and some people have migrated to Gab, Parler, Truth, etc. They are low SNR for me, so I don’t care to join them, as much of the U…

> This comment just feels like you are only pointing fingers at large corps Good to know. That's not my intent. I am distinguishing between platforms and forums, not big vs. small. Platforms tend to be large corps, but there are many smaller players in the platform space. You named a few. I think all of those should be forced to be public benefit corps as well. The line between forum and platform is weird, but I thin…

> 2000 years

Heh. One too many zeros. x.x

Personally I think the solution is to have some sort of downward pressure on clauses in ToS contracts. Right now, those things could grow nearly infinitely long and clients would have to tolerate it. If corps had a significant reason to minimize the restrictive clauses, there would be a little more freedom for all.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#240
The funny thing is that everyone commenting here thinks that we're headed towards an authoritarian nightmare, but for different reasons.

It's not until you sit with someone and nut out what they mean by "authoritarian" and "censorship" and so on that you realise you're completely morally and politically opposed to them.

This shallow political take is what allows so many strange bedfellows to unite on the "political right" (which is no longer really a relevant tag).

I'm reminded of this amazing review by George Orwell:

"Yet each writer is convinced that the other’s policy leads directly to slavery, and the alarming thing is that they may both be right."

https://maudestavern.com/2008/10/09/george-orwell-review/

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