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Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

on.substack.com

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Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#141

Post by canadaduane »

throwawaylinux wrote: post #124
jltsiren wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That exactly is the trust problem. Why would trustworthy people even try to gain power, if the public assumes that those in power are untrustworthy and corrupt? And why would those in power remain trustworthy when the incentives are clearly in favor of abusing your power and the public assumes that you will do that anyway? It's a vicious cycle, but a virtuous cycle would also work in the same way. Reality shapes peop…

> That exactly is the trust problem. Why would trustworthy people even try to gain power, if the public assumes that those in power are untrustworthy and corrupt? To improve society. > And why would those in power remain trustworthy when the incentives are clearly in favor of abusing your power and the public assumes that you will do that anyway? They were never trustworthy to begin with if they do that. Trustworthy…

"never trustworthy to begin with" seems similar to the No True Scotsman[1] fallacy.

I've been in religious circles where it's very important to defend the idea that once you believe, you're saved. But there's a darker side to that idea, because in order to maintain belief in the face of someone doubting and leaving the faith, everyone in the faith explains it away with "Oh, they never Really Believed in the first place."

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#142

Post by slim »

pdonis wrote: post #122
throwawaygh wrote: post #110

I say Bah to the entire censorship debate! My critique of Substack is that our lesson from the last ten years is simple: speech should happen primarily on platforms that are prohibited from profit-seeking and run in the public interest. Censorship on these platforms should be prohibited, of course, but so should any form of profit seeking. Our problem isn't censorship. Our problem is that our political/economic/relig…

> speech should happen primarily on platforms that are prohibited from profit-seeking and run in the public interest. Censorship on these platforms should be prohibited, of course, but so should any form of profit seeking. No such platform has ever existed. How would you propose building one?

using tax money. as simple as that

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#143

Post by Beltalowda »

pdonis wrote: post #122
throwawaygh wrote: post #110

I say Bah to the entire censorship debate! My critique of Substack is that our lesson from the last ten years is simple: speech should happen primarily on platforms that are prohibited from profit-seeking and run in the public interest. Censorship on these platforms should be prohibited, of course, but so should any form of profit seeking. Our problem isn't censorship. Our problem is that our political/economic/relig…

> speech should happen primarily on platforms that are prohibited from profit-seeking and run in the public interest. Censorship on these platforms should be prohibited, of course, but so should any form of profit seeking. No such platform has ever existed. How would you propose building one?

Many countries have public media organisations that are funded by taxes or a license fee, and run in the public interest without a strong profit motive. The BBC is a well-known example, but many countries have their own version.

I don't think this is a solution though. These organisations are distrusted just as much as anything else.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#144

Post by adolph »

geekpowa wrote: post #29
tick_tock_tick wrote: post #3

The problem is the government and traditional media have been caught lying again and again. Once that trust is broken I don't know how you rebuild it. Hell people I commonly talk to still believe a police officer was beaten to death on 1/6 and that people, other then the women shot for trying to enter the chambers, died directly due to the riot. All because of that what the news reported and quietly fixed days later…

I search "Jan 6 Deaths" and very first hit is this NYT article. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/05/us/politics/jan-6-capitol... The article contradicts your claim "reported and quietly fixed days later without ever really owning up to it". Firstly it is the first hit so hardly quiet. Secondly it outlines that initial reporting of Sicknick's death was simply reporting what capital police said, later revised by medical…

The linked article is from January 5 2022, a year less a day after the events in question, right? So it doesn't contradict a claim about the original reporting.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#145

Post by serverlessmom »

Many people have lost trust in the government and the media because they have proven to be, in many ways, untrustworthy. Adding another social media site(especially one that is so focused on free speech it's lawless) is not going to help gain trust or create community. Have we already forgotten about the 2017 election cycle and the role that uncensored social media played in that?

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#146

Post by throwawaygh »

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #139
daveevad wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've wondered in the past if something like 1st.gov shouldn't exist, basically a Twitter clone protected by the 1st Amendment payed for by the citizens of the United States.

That would be horrible. Web hosting, sure. A Twitter clone, with (next to) no moderation‽ It'd better have better self-moderation tools than I've seen on any Twitter clone ever. A Twitter clone is a good environment for metric maximisation: what makes you click “share” thrives, being reworded and altered occasionally, in a manner analogous to evolution (but with a more deliberate mutation process than randomness). So…

Doesn't have to be one thing. You can let there be a market of platforms. Just no profiteering, either directly or indirectly. Easier said than done, of course.

Also, shouldn't be .gov. Public benefit but not government-owned.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#147

Post by ausbah »

I think claiming "censorship" is often either an attempt by those in positions of influence to get attention by playing victim (see many super popular voices in Twitter and Facebook like Jordan Peterson) or bigots claw back a position on a platform when the site didn't wish to spread their vitriol

sure it happens, but I think the spotlight is often in the wrong corner

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#148

Post by adolph »

iqanq wrote: post #131
pdonis wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> speech should happen primarily on platforms that are prohibited from profit-seeking and run in the public interest. Censorship on these platforms should be prohibited, of course, but so should any form of profit seeking. No such platform has ever existed. How would you propose building one?

The American government should provide citizens with a basic public web hosting service where constitutional freedoms are respected.

Why limit it to citizens?

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#149

Post by president »

indymike wrote: post #22

Freedom of press and freedom of speech exist exactly because government could not be trusted, and eventually, lies have to be covered by making it illegal to expose those lies. Censorship seems like a good idea until you realize the end game looks a lot like "Best Korea".

This was obvious in the time when people that had the most rationale argument typically made decisions on how things should be. Now we live in a time where people who make the most money make the decisions on how things should be.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#150

Post by kragen »

pdonis wrote: post #122
throwawaygh wrote: post #110

I say Bah to the entire censorship debate! My critique of Substack is that our lesson from the last ten years is simple: speech should happen primarily on platforms that are prohibited from profit-seeking and run in the public interest. Censorship on these platforms should be prohibited, of course, but so should any form of profit seeking. Our problem isn't censorship. Our problem is that our political/economic/relig…

> speech should happen primarily on platforms that are prohibited from profit-seeking and run in the public interest. Censorship on these platforms should be prohibited, of course, but so should any form of profit seeking. No such platform has ever existed. How would you propose building one?

The Boston Common is such a platform.
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