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Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

on.substack.com

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Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#101

Post by kolanos »

throwawaygh wrote: post #64
ziroshima wrote: post #4

No doubt, these censors and would-be censors have the best of intentions. But you've really got your head up your own ass if you convince yourself that you are protecting people by deciding the information that is appropriate for them to be exposed to. I just don't understand the shortsightedness, the naivete, or the willingness to discard the principle of free speech.

The status quo is a messy conflagration where initial beliefs were the brush, a combination of mental health issues and social frustration were the trees, and the perverse incentives of engagement metrics provided the high winds. So I'm in the awkward middle ground of believing it's counter-productive to try to shelter people from ideas but also believing that lots of people are very easy to manipulate, even so easy…

> So I'm in the awkward middle ground of believing it's counter-productive to try to shelter people from ideas but also believing that lots of people are very easy to manipulate, even so easy to manipulate that it can happen en masse and entirely by accident.

Don't think it is an accident. The ruling class has set this stage by design. There is little to no critical thinking being taught in K-12. Create a malleable population, then push censorship to protect them from themselves.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#102

Post by paulpauper »

Substack will always be a sort of niche site. It will never pull anything close to Facebook or Twitter numbers. So investors do not have much expectations for growth. If investors had higher expectations of ad-based growth, then censorship would be a consideration if it meant boosting ad revenue.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#103

Post by ksdale »

throwawaygh wrote: post #64
ziroshima wrote: post #4

No doubt, these censors and would-be censors have the best of intentions. But you've really got your head up your own ass if you convince yourself that you are protecting people by deciding the information that is appropriate for them to be exposed to. I just don't understand the shortsightedness, the naivete, or the willingness to discard the principle of free speech.

The status quo is a messy conflagration where initial beliefs were the brush, a combination of mental health issues and social frustration were the trees, and the perverse incentives of engagement metrics provided the high winds. So I'm in the awkward middle ground of believing it's counter-productive to try to shelter people from ideas but also believing that lots of people are very easy to manipulate, even so easy…

The silver lining of this awkward middle ground is the certainty that censorship is the wrong way to go. We may be doomed if people remain so easy to manipulate, but if you really believe that censorship is counter-productive, then education is the only path out.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#104

Post by atoav »

The question is where that trust problem comes from. Taking the trust problem as granted and shying away from certain measures like censorship is not going to solve anything. Not to discuss whether censorship is wrong or right, but wouldn't this then be a case where we just put lipstick on a pig?

I grew up in Austria and back in the day the Nazis also didn't trust a lot of people. But their lack of trust was totally irrational and based on nothing real. Not doing something because you are afraid they might lose even more trust would have been the wrong way to go back then.

And it might be today as well. If we want to do something here we jave to divide those who reasonably doubt the integrity of the media from those who doubt it no matter what. This is an issue of education, of media law, etc. But giving in to people because they stop trusting is not the way out.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#105

Post by nonethewiser »

flyingcircus3 wrote: post #88
tick_tock_tick wrote: post #3

The problem is the government and traditional media have been caught lying again and again. Once that trust is broken I don't know how you rebuild it. Hell people I commonly talk to still believe a police officer was beaten to death on 1/6 and that people, other then the women shot for trying to enter the chambers, died directly due to the riot. All because of that what the news reported and quietly fixed days later…

> traditional media I see this distinction made all of the time when this topic comes up. The mainstream media is untrustworthy. Corporate media has an agenda. Legacy media is corrupt. These qualifiers all imply that there is some non-traditional, non-corporate, non-legacy media that does not have these problems. Yet whenever the people making these distinctions are asked who/what these superior alternatives are, the…

Legacy/traditional/corporate/entrenched media has an outsized impact. There doesnt need to be some pure alternative in order to recognize that.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#106

Post by nonethewiser »

SomewhatLikely wrote: post #20
tick_tock_tick wrote: post #3

The problem is the government and traditional media have been caught lying again and again. Once that trust is broken I don't know how you rebuild it. Hell people I commonly talk to still believe a police officer was beaten to death on 1/6 and that people, other then the women shot for trying to enter the chambers, died directly due to the riot. All because of that what the news reported and quietly fixed days later…

They may have some details wrong, but do you think their overall impression of the event is wildly inaccurate? There was significant violence perpetrated during that event, even if it didn't result in death. Police officers were beaten. When these mistaken people are corrected and told no one died at the hands of rioters, but 150 police officers sustained injuries some so bad they were still out of work six months la…

>They may have some details wrong, but do you think their overall impression of the event is wildly inaccurate?

The prosecutors do. None are being charged with insurrection nor terrorism, just trespassing and disorderly conduct.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#107

Post by unityByFreedom »

ziroshima wrote: post #4

No doubt, these censors and would-be censors have the best of intentions. But you've really got your head up your own ass if you convince yourself that you are protecting people by deciding the information that is appropriate for them to be exposed to. I just don't understand the shortsightedness, the naivete, or the willingness to discard the principle of free speech.

Without any curation, everyone would have to wade through tons of spam.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#108

Post by zozbot234 »

OrvalWintermute wrote: post #51
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: > Trust in social media and traditional media is at an all-time low. Yeah, some of it is "people in power". And some isn't. But when you say > Yes, if that's what you mean. you sure look like you're trying to ignore what the article actually says, and twist the general idea to fit the axe you want to grind. That kind of stunt is (part of) why trust in society is low.

I think some of this debacle is changing who we trust. Joe Rogan is rapidly becoming "the most trusted man in America". Russell Brand, another Leftist comedian, is moving from funny routines to scathing anti-corruption populist commentary. Tucker Carlson is now dominating Cable. The big Pharma ad-supported mainstream media is rightly terrified of this. The gravy train is at risk.

Joe Rogan does cringe comedy. And there's plenty to both cringe and snicker about wrt. his recent podcasts on vaccines. I wouldn't call him "trusted" by any means.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#109

Post by gtsop »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #89
gtsop wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> twist the general idea to fit the axe you want to grind. From the article just after the line you quoted: > Trust in the U.S. federal government to handle problems is at a near-record low. Trust in the U.S.’s major institutions is within 2 percentage points of the all-time low. I can't possibly buy that fact that society has a problem if my aunt mary doesn't trust what plumberRob23 post on their instagram, so forgi…

Yes, it's the major institutions. And it's the mainstream media (I guess those count as major institutions). And it's social media. I object to your trying to paint it as if it's only mistrust of major institutions. It's untrue to the article to limit it like that.

My intention wasn't to exclude general mistrust. My purpose was to pick on a title that appears to me as missleading (and a bit annoying, I admit).

I dislike these sort of titles that imply that we're all in this together and we are all at fault and this problem we are facing is some sort of natural phenomenon not tied to some people who are actually responsible

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#110

Post by throwawaygh »

I say Bah to the entire censorship debate!

My critique of Substack is that our lesson from the last ten years is simple: speech should happen primarily on platforms that are prohibited from profit-seeking and run in the public interest. Censorship on these platforms should be prohibited, of course, but so should any form of profit seeking.

Our problem isn't censorship. Our problem is that our political/economic/religious/public health discourse is entirely mediated by corporations that are helmed by clever and well-educated folks and funded by the tippy-top of the elite financier class, who expect exceptional ROI.

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