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Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

on.substack.com

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Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#51

Post by OrvalWintermute »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #28
gtsop wrote: post #5

Wait.. what? Society has a trust problem? Implying we should trust people in power (economic and state) that have repeatedly and shamelessly acted for their own benefit against the interest of the public while they control the media (tv and online) to censor and/or shaddow-ban criticism and alternate views? Yes, if that's what you mean. We have a trust problem because there are people in power who are not trustworthy…

From the article: > Trust in social media and traditional media is at an all-time low. Yeah, some of it is "people in power". And some isn't. But when you say > Yes, if that's what you mean. you sure look like you're trying to ignore what the article actually says, and twist the general idea to fit the axe you want to grind. That kind of stunt is (part of) why trust in society is low.

I think some of this debacle is changing who we trust.

Joe Rogan is rapidly becoming "the most trusted man in America". Russell Brand, another Leftist comedian, is moving from funny routines to scathing anti-corruption populist commentary. Tucker Carlson is now dominating Cable.

The big Pharma ad-supported mainstream media is rightly terrified of this. The gravy train is at risk.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#52

Post by commandlinefan »

paulpauper wrote: post #47

As bad as twitter and Facebook censorship is, it's worse for other sites, like Reddit or probably any v-bulletin forum. Reddit subs have soooo much moderation, especially any sub that that is even slightly popular, so many arbitrary and hidden rules and content guidelines. On twitter I can call someone a jerk and the worst that may happen is the person may block me, but that will get your banned from many reddit subs…

> Reddit subs have soooo much moderation

Moderation I can live with. If some mod doesn't want me on their sub, I find another. It's the admin hammer bans of the subs I found that I object to.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#53

Post by ameminator »

ziroshima wrote: post #4

No doubt, these censors and would-be censors have the best of intentions. But you've really got your head up your own ass if you convince yourself that you are protecting people by deciding the information that is appropriate for them to be exposed to. I just don't understand the shortsightedness, the naivete, or the willingness to discard the principle of free speech.

I doubt that, in a decent number of cases, these censors have the best of intentions.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#54

Post by dukeofdoom »

Clearly, part of the problem is over reliance on experts. Somehow the professional class (empowered by Twitter and Social Media) has now convinced themselves that they're God's gift to to the world ... because they read a book. And is totally oblivious to how stupid some of those things they're advocating for are.

When I go to a doctor, chances are he will prescribe me some drugs. Why? because thats what they're trained to do, rewarded for doing, and punished for not doing. If I go a mechanic, and ask him for a couch, he will probably offer me the back seat. If I ask my teacher, they'll tell me study hard and do my homework.

There's a good chance I neither want or need pills, or a backseat couch, or do homework all afternoon. This might be their best professional advice. But ultimately, I have to use my own judgment to assess risk and benefit since I have to live with consequences.

This is now somehow bad, and we're supposed throw out personal autonomy, and trust experts, newscasters and so on. But this has not worked out in the past, especially when there's coercion involved. By complying you're only empowering these people.

The antidote is to assert individual rights and especially freedom of speech. Build parallel societies. And ridicule the authoritarians.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#55

Post by AnimalMuppet »

I think that part of the problem is that we are under a disinformation attack. Russia did a lot around the elections, but I don't think they've gone to zero. I think both China and Iran are active. (The old Soviet "active measures" is what I have in mind - you get a number of sock puppets to all say the same idea, and it looks like that's what the consensus is, because people hear it from several sources.)

That erodes trust. You have people you know (or think you know) online who say really out-there positions. You either adjust your position, or you don't. Either way, you now have to distrust people you trusted before. (And, I suppose, me saying this reduces trust, too - how many of the people I respect online are actively sowing disinformation? How many are unknowingly passing it on?)

Then there's domestic disinformation. Both political parties (and their satellites) at least. Conservative and liberal think-tanks. (Don't kid yourself that only the other side does it.)

You could even consider regular commercial advertising to be disinformation, though I wouldn't go that far. But big corporations do engage in disinformation - think about the tobacco companies and "no, smoking doesn't cause cancer".

It's really hard to trust when people are actively, deliberately lying to you for their own advantage.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#56

Post by gtsop »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #28
gtsop wrote: post #5

Wait.. what? Society has a trust problem? Implying we should trust people in power (economic and state) that have repeatedly and shamelessly acted for their own benefit against the interest of the public while they control the media (tv and online) to censor and/or shaddow-ban criticism and alternate views? Yes, if that's what you mean. We have a trust problem because there are people in power who are not trustworthy…

From the article: > Trust in social media and traditional media is at an all-time low. Yeah, some of it is "people in power". And some isn't. But when you say > Yes, if that's what you mean. you sure look like you're trying to ignore what the article actually says, and twist the general idea to fit the axe you want to grind. That kind of stunt is (part of) why trust in society is low.

> twist the general idea to fit the axe you want to grind.

From the article just after the line you quoted:

> Trust in the U.S. federal government to handle problems is at a near-record low. Trust in the U.S.’s major institutions is within 2 percentage points of the all-time low.

I can't possibly buy that fact that society has a problem if my aunt mary doesn't trust what plumberRob23 post on their instagram, so forgive for bothering only with the bigger issue at hand, which is systemic mistrust.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#57

Post by kerneloftruth »

commandlinefan wrote: post #2

> It means we allow writers to publish what they want and readers to decide for themselves what to read I hope they stick to their guns. History suggests they won't.

Actually, the norm in the past many decades in the US was a very liberal press, where people could publish on subversive topics of all kinds. The "left" supported broad first amendment rights on practically any topic. Now, they actively seek to censor and silence those who question or criticize a narrative, and with regard to covid those who question government policy. It's a bizarre and disorienting shift.

It's really the present day that suggest that substack won't be able to stick to their guns out of fear of organized opposition from "mobs". If they're able to maintain dependence only on subscribers, it's possible they can survive (and hopefully thrive) -- until somebody gets greedy.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#58

Post by paulpauper »

omgitsabird wrote: post #50

Who is being censored? Sure people are banned from communities, but that is nothing new. For most people, to host a blog, one can host a server at their house, through their own ISP, use the latest static website package, and share some links. It is a very low barrier to entry. I think what people are actually saying is that they want the followers that these platforms provide them. They want to be able to push notif…

The problem is that accounts are tied to identities. Losing your Facebook or twitter account is a ban on the person; not only do you lose year's worth of contacts and content, but you are prohibited from making a new one, and if you do it may eventually be banned too.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#59

Post by timoth3y »

Too many people are confusing "censorship" and "content moderation".

Content moderation is when you determine what is published on your platform. Censorship is when someone else tells you want can be published on your platform.

Substack is probably making the right business decision, but the claim in this article is completely backwarrds.

Trust 100% requires content moderation. Good scientific journals are trusted because they exercise extremely tight control over what gets published. Good news sources are trusted because they moderate content and exercise strict editorial control. Facebook is a untrusted cesspool of misinformation specifically because they moderate so lightly.

The idea that trust comes from lack of content moderation or editorial control is logically and empirically wrong.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#60

Post by creato »

tick_tock_tick wrote: post #3

The problem is the government and traditional media have been caught lying again and again. Once that trust is broken I don't know how you rebuild it. Hell people I commonly talk to still believe a police officer was beaten to death on 1/6 and that people, other then the women shot for trying to enter the chambers, died directly due to the riot. All because of that what the news reported and quietly fixed days later…

> The problem is the government and traditional media have been caught lying again and again.

These two things are huge. They are not monolithic entities that "lie" or "don't lie". I think a big problem is such blind cynicism. Especially when the alternatives people are turning to are hilariously worse. I'd be more sympathetic to the claim that traditional media is terrible if they weren't using that to direct influence towards crazy uncles on facebook instead.

I think many things people think are "lies" are just uncertainties. The pandemic is full of these. There are a ton of confounding variables and we don't have any perfect control groups from which to make any conclusions. Basically every big issue that gets debated by the internet armchair experts is badly affected by this: COVID severity, the effectiveness of vaccines, masks, Ivermectin. Every damn thread is full of people speaking as authoritatively as they possibly can pointing to individual studies or data points without understanding the context, scale, or confounding factors.

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