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The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

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Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#251

Post by the-dude »

growse wrote: post #225
the-dude wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this work for a 'permit to enter' which is only valid 24hrs?

Only a CoronaCeck test result certificate is valid for 24 hours. Certificates of vaccination and recovery are valid for much longer ( https://coronacheck.nl/en/faq/1-4-hoe-lang-is-mijn-coronabew... ). Are there places which are legally required to only accept test result certificates?

> Are there places which are legally required to only accept test result certificates?

Not in NL. Why does this matter?

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#252

Post by demosito666 »

throwawaygh wrote: post #164

Surveillance-resistant systems are not an answer to authoritarianism. Private companies do not have freedom of operation in authoritarian regimes. It's a special sort of odd neoliberal fantasy where capitalists or technologists can route around an authoritarian social movement that seizes the power of the state. Do you want to know what happens to people who think they can route around an authoritarian regime with cl…

While this is 100% correct that Surveillance-resistant systems or other technical means are not he answer to authoritarianism, this statement has at least two problems.

1. A technical solution may not in itself be the way to counter authoritarianism, but may assist in either resisting it or prevent it from gaining enough power. Since democracy is a state of permanent fight against the iron law of oligarchy (which ultimately leads to authoritarianism), any thing that reduces the power of the govt to a certain extent is good. In other words, we don't want the govt to be 100% efficient in whatever it does. Arguably modern tech in current state gives the govt near 100% efficiency in surveillance, so this has to be countered with any means, most of which are of course political and legislative, but surveillance-resistant technology can also play its part.

2. Authoritarianism is not the only threat. It's entirely possible to have a democracy in place and yet have a miserable existence under it. For example, if every perfectly democratic law we have now is enforced with 100% efficiency it will feel very close to a dystopia. Technology can help alleviate this to a certain extent.

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#253

Post by throwawaygh »

ecdouvhr wrote: post #250
bentcorner wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a middle ground here that has existed for a long time. Mail hand-written cheques for your bills, deposit your paystub into your bank account, withdraw cash on a periodic basis for daily spending. You don't even need to use a banking card for any of this. I haven't been to a store that has refused cash and have never been required to use a banking app.

Where do you still use checks? I don't think I've seen one since the 90's.

I still pay most of my bills with checks. I also collect rent and pay rent with checks. Basically my entire financial life except for perhaps eating out and buying useless things online is mediated in cash and checks. This is very normal in my social circle.

Just because you choose to use e-banking doesn't mean that cash and checks are inaccessible, or even particularly inconvenient.

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#254

Post by nicholasnorris »

core-utility wrote: post #26
choeger wrote: post #18

We are long beyond that point, sadly. We are right now in the process of a) becoming legally required to own and carry a particular kind of device and b) being legally unable to fully control said device and c) having that device explicitly working (again by legal requirement) against our own interests It will be interesting to watch how things will progress and whether governments or corporations will be the ones ho…

The TV show Upload [1] has a group of people dubbed the "Ludds" (i.e. Luddites) that refuse to be party to the turn that the technological revolution has taken and stick to traditional ways of doing things. I strongly believe if that were to happen in our world today, much of Silicon Valley would be "Ludds", while a mass of non-tech people would happily welcome our new technological overlords. [1]: https://www.imdb.c…

It's my understanding that the Luddite movement was less about personal preferences or adherence to tradition, and more a labor movement that was opposed to losing their livelihoods to early forms of automation.

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#255

Post by 3pt14159 »

rvense wrote: post #194
3pt14159 wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No we aren't. I don't have to buy a phone. Yes, the apps make the border easier for Covid, but don't be ridiculous. I can fallback to filling out a piece of paper. Furthermore, I can buy an [PinePhone, Librem 5, etc] phone and "fully control" that. As for c) that's been part of life since the government got the right to tap your phone or telegraph. Right now there are troubling signs for the direction of American dem…

> No we aren't. In Denmark where I live there are now trivial things that are impossible to do without an Apple or Google smartphone, and important things that are becoming very hard. Unless laws are specifically enacted to enshrine "analogue rights" or whatever, it will become impossible to exist here without a smartphone over the next decade. Cash is largely dead and will die when the legal requirement to accept it…

Which services specifically? This is an international forum. I want specific examples and I don't think that's too much of an ask.

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#256

Post by 3pt14159 »

choeger wrote: post #208
3pt14159 wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My bank has a mobile friendly website? I'm sure it would work on PinePhone. Either way, this is goalpost moving. I don't even need to own a bank account. OP said government.

In Germany, you indeed need to have a bank account to pay your Rundfunkgebühren.

What does that mean? Is it broadcasting fee? I tried Googling it and I'm not sure.

Anyway, Germany used to require people to join the military and kill other people. Now they don't. Progress.

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#257

Post by giantg2 »

throwawaygh wrote: post #214
giantg2 wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Literally no one is going to give a shit if you make your mortgage or car payment in cash." Are you sure? To get a mortgage they check the source of your down payment and it cannot be cash. Seems odd if they don't also check source for payments.

> Are you sure? Yes, absolutely sure. > To get a mortgage I said: >> make your mortgage or car payment Making payment on existing loan != taking out a new loan. > they check the source of your down payment and it cannot be cash. If you mean literal physical cash: the main reason for this is that no one involved in the transaction is interested in taking on the risk of carrying briefcases full of cash across town. If…

It's not just the risk of carrying the cash. They have to comply with the Money Laundering Act.

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#258

Post by adolph »

throwawaygh wrote: post #164

Surveillance-resistant systems are not an answer to authoritarianism. Private companies do not have freedom of operation in authoritarian regimes. It's a special sort of odd neoliberal fantasy where capitalists or technologists can route around an authoritarian social movement that seizes the power of the state. Do you want to know what happens to people who think they can route around an authoritarian regime with cl…

> get serious about the work of political persuasion

The Conversations with Tyler Cowen podcast episode "Audrey Tang on the Technology of Democracy (Ep. 106)" has some interesting content in this regard. Tang works on the government side but the same principles are involved regardless of direction.

https://medium.com/conversations-with-tyler/audrey-tang-tyle...

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#259

Post by adolph »

0xcde4c3db wrote: post #237
Tyr42 wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't want to type the letters in the middle, so they dropped them and put a count of how many letters were dropped. I'm mostly familiar with a11y meaning accessibility.

I believe this pattern was originally popularized by "i18n" for "internationalization", partly for convenience and partly to have an identifier that would fit in legacy systems.

Numeronym:

According to Tex Texin, the first numeronym of this kind was "S12n", the electronic mail account name given to Digital Equipment Corporation (DEC) employee Jan Scherpenhuizen by a system administrator because his surname was too long to be an account name.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numeronym

Agree that i18n cemented it in the letter count form (homonym form is older, like K9 for canine).

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#260

Post by jjav »

throwawaygh wrote: post #164

Surveillance-resistant systems are not an answer to authoritarianism. Private companies do not have freedom of operation in authoritarian regimes. It's a special sort of odd neoliberal fantasy where capitalists or technologists can route around an authoritarian social movement that seizes the power of the state. Do you want to know what happens to people who think they can route around an authoritarian regime with cl…

> Surveillance-resistant systems are not an answer to authoritarianism. > > Private companies do not have freedom of operation in authoritarian regimes.

Companies can never be surveillance resistant, they'll get court orders and follow them.

The only surveillance resistant (not surveillance-proof obviously) technologies are distributed, decentralized ones implemented in open source.

You're right that political activism is ultimately the only good answer. But it's not either/or, it is still quite useful in parallel to also develop, maintain and popularize decentralized systems as much as possible.

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